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Offline Jedo
 Post subject: Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo
Post #41 Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 5:49 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Komi: -15; Prisoners: ,
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O O X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 0 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


計画通り :twisted: 　

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Offline ez4u
 Post subject: Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo
Post #42 Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 5:29 pm 
Oza
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[go]$$Wcm31 Komi: -15; Prisoners: :b100:, :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O O X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The one question here was whether there was any value to playing :w1: as below. However, it seems to me that something like the continuation shown simply helps Black. White forces Black to play something that Black wants to play anyway and :w1: becomes a complete loss. In addition, White "forces" Black to reduce the liberties of the center White stones.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 6 X . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O O X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O 1 2 3 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
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Offline Jedo
 Post subject: Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo
Post #43 Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:07 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Komi: -15; Prisoners: ,
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O O X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
"There are no limits. There are plateaus, but you must not stay there, you must go beyond them. If it kills you, it kills you. A man must constantly exceed his level." -- Bruce Lee
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Offline ez4u
 Post subject: Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo
Post #44 Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 1:40 pm 
Oza
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Komi: -15; Prisoners: :b100:, :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O O X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think that taking the tightest grip on Black's stones leaves the least aji to be exploited here.

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"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
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Offline Jedo
 Post subject: Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo
Post #45 Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:38 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Komi: -15; Prisoners: ,
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . 4 . X . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O O X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I have to shut down these two white stones right now, or he'll connect under and separate my group. This seemed like the most effecient way to do that.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Komi: -15; Prisoners: ,
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . a . X . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . c . , X O O X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

b seems too greedy; the waist cut is too annoying. c seems too passive. I hope a is the right balance, although there certainly is aji remaining. So how do I feel about this result? White has to care for his top group now, and will probably try to do so in sente.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Komi: -15; Prisoners: ,
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . a X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . 4 . X . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O O X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This might just give me too much territory, but I bet he'll find some kind of reducing move that thickens those stones. I'm also pretty limited in what I can do up there, since my black group is short of liberties. Moves that I'm looking for once I get sente:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Komi: -15; Prisoners: ,
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . 4 . X . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O O X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O 3 . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . b . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo
Post #46 Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:57 pm 
Gosei
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First time looking at this game:
Wait, white is giving 15 komi? White is behind... :scratch:

Although, black's last move looks like it leaves a lot of aji...

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Offline jts
 Post subject: Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo
Post #47 Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:44 pm 
Oza
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daniel_the_smith wrote:
First time looking at this game:
Wait, white is giving 15 komi? White is behind... :scratch:

Although, black's last move looks like it leaves a lot of aji...


White gave two stones... if it looked like W was 15 points ahead on move 34, that would be pretty amazing play by ez4u, no?
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Offline ez4u
 Post subject: Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo
Post #48 Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:31 pm 
Oza
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Komi: -15; Prisoners: :b100:, :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . X . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O O X . , . . . . . , 5 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Not enough time to explain this right now. It ties up with how I would like to approach the rest of the game. More later...

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Offline Loons
 Post subject: Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo
Post #49 Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:54 pm 
Gosei
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I'm torn as black. White did not spend a move finishing the capture of the two black centre stones; they seem very big to me. On the other hand, white has been growing his moyo around that large knight's shimari, and b is a common place for approaching that. c... I don't really like c a lot :P.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Komi: -15; Prisoners: :b100:, :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . X . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O O X . a . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . b . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In the end I might play 'a'.

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Offline Jedo
 Post subject: Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo
Post #50 Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:47 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Komi: -15; Prisoners: ,
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . X . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O O X . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This one was a pretty tough call for me.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Komi: -15; Prisoners: ,
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . b . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . X . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O O X . , . . . . . , 5 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The choice was between just taking a lot of points up time, or invading while I still have the chance. As nice as b looks, what if white just takes another move to expand the moyo?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Komi: -15; Prisoners: ,
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 6 . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . X . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O O X . , . . . . . , 5 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This might be fine, but I don't think the points at the top are totally locked up, and white is threatening to grab a lot of the middle. I suppose in a game with less total territory, the 15 point handicap might be worth more. Also, b is just feels wrong; the focus of the game seems to be white's framework. So then the question is, how to reduce?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Komi: -15; Prisoners: ,
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . X . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O O X . , . . . . . , 5 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . . . . . . . d . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . c . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


These were the main spots I thought of. D and C don't seem severe enough, I really want to strike at the heart of the framework. The standard probe of a seems bad because it is too easy for white to answer by allowing me to live in the corner and shut me in. I like the proke (probe+poke) of b because it's light, takes advantage of white's loose enclosure, and faces towards the outside.

Two main lines I see:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Komi: -15; Prisoners: ,
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . X . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O O X . , . . . . . , 5 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . 6 7 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . 8 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . 0 O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Komi: -15; Prisoners: ,
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . X . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O O X . , . . . . . , 5 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 2 . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Seems like a pretty good result for me. The other line:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Komi: -15; Prisoners: ,
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . X . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O O X . , . . . . . , 5 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . 8 O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 0 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Hard to say what will happen here.

And yes, I am aware of all the bs with the upper right enclosure, but whatever. Proke to victory!

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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo
Post #51 Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 12:50 pm 
Gosei
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jts wrote:
White gave two stones... if it looked like W was 15 points ahead on move 34, that would be pretty amazing play by ez4u, no?


Yes... but it also shouldn't look like white gave three stones!

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Offline gowan
 Post subject: Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo
Post #52 Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:10 pm 
Gosei

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daniel_the_smith wrote:
jts wrote:
White gave two stones... if it looked like W was 15 points ahead on move 34, that would be pretty amazing play by ez4u, no?


Yes... but it also shouldn't look like white gave three stones!


Don't forget White is also giving 15 points reverse komi.
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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo
Post #53 Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:19 pm 
Gosei
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Black's move feels a bit too deep to me. What about something like a or b instead? I think ez4u will be able to hassle black, it's hard to stay light in a position like that (for me anyway).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Komi: -15; Prisoners: :b100:, :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . X . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O O X . , . . . . b , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline ez4u
 Post subject: Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo
Post #54 Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 5:43 pm 
Oza
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Komi: -15; Prisoners: :b100:, :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . X . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O O X . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think the center is more important than the corner. I think it is not so easy for Black to make a reasonable shape here. I do not expect to capture the Black stone(s), but I would like to push them around. I do not like the relationship of the marked stones if I answer underneath as below.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . X . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O O X . , . . . . . , W . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 6 . X 1 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . W . . . . . 2 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . 4 O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
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Offline Jedo
 Post subject: Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo
Post #55 Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 6:06 pm 
Lives in gote
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Komi: -15; Prisoners: ,
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . X . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O O X . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . 8 O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
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Offline ez4u
 Post subject: Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo
Post #56 Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 7:33 pm 
Oza
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Komi: -15; Prisoners: :b100:, :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . X . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O O X . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . 9 X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think :b38: is an interesting play. I will continue as I began, emphasizing the center. However, I expect Black will play Q2 next or simply jump sideways to M3 and I have not yet convinced myself that I get an efficient result out of this.

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Offline Jedo
 Post subject: Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo
Post #57 Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 8:04 pm 
Lives in gote
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Komi: -15; Prisoners: ,
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . X . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O O X . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

don't really seem to have much of a choice here, as MHO is clearly stressing the outside. It looks like I might get shut in the corner in gote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Komi: -15; Prisoners: ,
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . c . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . d . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . X . X X O O . . . . . b . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O O X . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . a . . . . . O X . 6 . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . 5 3 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . 1 . X O 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'll obviously examine this more closely if it occurs, but this was my light read. I do get a reasonable amount of points in the corner, and white can't get both a and b, so I think the middle isn't as big as it looks, although d might be a problem after white b. I'll see if I have a chance to finagle sente out of this sequence

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Offline ez4u
 Post subject: Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo
Post #58 Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 11:05 pm 
Oza
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KGS: ez4u
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41 Komi: -15; Prisoners: :b100:, :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . X . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O O X . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . 1 X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

No special thought, I just remain consistent in valuing the outside over the corner.

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
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Offline Jedo
 Post subject: Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo
Post #59 Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 6:48 pm 
Lives in gote
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Posts: 588
Location: NY
Liked others: 124
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Rank: 2D KGS
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41 Komi: -15; Prisoners: ,
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . X . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O O X . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . 4 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . 1 X O 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Craziness? I'll explain later

_________________
"There are no limits. There are plateaus, but you must not stay there, you must go beyond them. If it kills you, it kills you. A man must constantly exceed his level." -- Bruce Lee
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Offline ez4u
 Post subject: Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo
Post #60 Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 7:26 pm 
Oza
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Posts: 2414
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Liked others: 2351
Was liked: 1332
Rank: Jp 6 dan
KGS: ez4u
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41 Komi: -15; Prisoners: :b100:, :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . X . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O O X . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . 3 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . 1 X O 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Again concentrating on the outside. Also, answering inside per Jedo's trigger would mean going for a kill, which does not seem likely to succeed. I considered briefly descending with :w45: instead of the atari, but this seems more appropriate. He may cut here and play ko. I think I am not able to exchange the upper left for the bottom right and have any hope of winning, so he has many potential ko threats. We will see. Meanwhile, I hope to end in sente (naturally) but I am not sure that I can.

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Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
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