Yes i do believe such studies make me a little less representative than say, Aguilar who never spent considerable time in Asian countries, and also makes me a little representative of Korea in that matter. So in many ways most players are hybrids, so as i said there is a line somewhere, which i dont think i cross.

I do think pros cross it.

The issue here is larger than what AGA does. This is about continental representation, and the AGA shouldnt have the final word about who is representative continentally, just as much as the Argentine go association shouldnt be able to tell me im not representative for Ibero-america. This is about a very unfair criteria being applied to an international tournament and the difficulty of making one criteria.

And such criteria should be applied by the IGF in accordance to the sponsors. Of course if the sponsors only want americans, or canadiands ,there is not much to discuss, its not about fairness, its about resources.

I have put the belief that pros can be representative at a test before. If argentina allows 10 korean pros to participate on any tournament, im pretty sure noone in the rest of the continent would like to lose all years forever to those players.

All that said, i think we all agree that Sports accord would have been better handled by giving all willing countries a chance to fight their place, even south africa, or other asian countries like Thailand.

I think the only remaining "issue" is if there is a difference between being representative of a country or a continent. You can believe that being representative of the first makes you rep of the second: i disagree.

-I was once denied country representation yet i was able to represent the continent.
-I find it totally possible to have a country representation and not a continental one. For example, a country could accept a nationalized immigrant but if he doesnt have European passport he cant participate in certain Euro tournaments.

The question is, can a professional be representative of the Americas? And how would you decide that in case of disagreement?

I said before that i believed it was a representation of the Americas, instead of US. That said the whole business has a funky smell, because canadians "pledging" for the flag to participate sounds deviant.

I just believe this is not a matter for the US to decide on. Who is representative continentally has to be the responsibility of a higher level organization like the FIG. But as it stands, such organizations delegate power of decision to the national associations which in turn can do whatever they want. So contries can decide for continents. Thats how its usually done, i dont know the specifics of the Sports accord because i simply have no access to that information.

When i read in the AGA E-J that the eliminatories were to be held online on KGS, i felt my heart ripped off my chest.

Alledgedly there are representatives for south-america in the FIG, but during the whole decision process i didnt hear anything from them, and when i said something it seemed to be too late. I believe the FIG has very little strength as a representational organization.

I do feel bad for you, but it's not clear what could be done.



I think looking further into this and trying to improve things for next time may be the most productive thing you could do about it.

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They are citizens of the Americas, so they will always be allowed to be a representative.

well, to Conanbatt's point... I think it depends on who is spearheading the group "The Americas". If only Canada and US are in "The Americas", then I don't think either of them has a problem with it. But as other countries are included in the larger group of "The Americas", then the group collectively should need to decide. But there'll be a pretty strong vote from el norte to include them

I feel like the bulk of this issue is "amateur vs. pro", not "American vs. immigrant"

If a tournament is asking for the best from each country, then Ming-Jiu, Feng Yun, and Jie Li all have a right to compete for us. Citizenship is the only usable standard, and if we accept that we are a country of immigrants, then we have to accept that most of our strength comes from borrowing the strengths of our immigrants.

On the other hand, there are very good arguments for Amateur-only tournaments. As soon as a player becomes a professional, I think it's fair to say that they have "landed", They will gain considerably less than an amateur in the same representation slot.

I don't think this should be about who has the right to represent the US. If you're a citizen, or have lived here for a number of years, I think you have that right. But, as a professional (regardless of where they spent the bulk of their time studying), I think they need to step aside to allow their amateur students the opportunity.

I think the US should take a strong amateurs-only approach to international tournaments. At least until we have a professional system of our own. At that point, Feng Yun, Ming-Jiu can become official american pros, and we can revert the representation system.

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Tactics yes, Tact no...

yes, but doesn't that also have to do with the sponsor's requirements?

if the sponsor says its an amateur only event then fine, but if they are allowing pros to enter, then we should too.

Well, we set the standards for international representation.

Seems we would have the right to say "Qualification tournaments are open to Amateur US citizens and permanent residents or to registered US Pros"

The "registered US pro" would not exist until there was a professional system.

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Tactics yes, Tact no...

This seems unfair to me. You are putting them at a disadvantage to represent the US since they became professional before coming here.

Also they have lost to amateurs here in the US, so when do you decide when they could play again? I doubt we'll see a professional go system for a long while.

You really have not made much of a change here from the distinction in your first sentence. You have simply replaced "American vs Immigrant' with "American pro vs Immigrant pro". You are ok with pros representing the US, as long they are "American" pros.

It is my understanding that the US follows the lead of the inviters in these matters. If they want amatuers only, then an amatuer is sent. If they want only citizens, then we send only citizens. If green card is allowed, we open up to those with green cards.

Clearly the US has followed a policy of trying to make such opportunities available to as many people as possible. Politically, whether it be amatuer or pro, immigrant or native born - this seems in keeping with the nature of the this country and the goals of the AGA.

A "strong amatuer only approach" also seems definitionally inappropriate for events that pay game fees to the participants.

I would be willing to place other restrictions on US representation in terms of participation in AGA events and programs, but I would not want to exclude anyone based on who they are - particularly if who they are is someone who has devoted a major part of their life to the game.

Because they have professional status, they still have the right to compete in qualifiers for these same tournaments, a right which other Americans do not have.

But you are right, I am putting them at a disadvantage for international representation by making the transition of American Amateurs to American pros a priority.

I'm not sure why their occasional losses to US Amateurs is relevant. Are they not huge favorites in any matchup?

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Tactics yes, Tact no...

I guess this is the fundamental difference. I place very little priority on an American professional system and would rather just have everyone play equally.

I think the distinction is pretty strong, I don't care about the nationality, but with their pro status, they have an established allegiance to an existing International Go Association which is not the AGA. Perhaps they can retire their existing professional status, that would enable them to become amateurs again.




In the past we've received a lot of lee-way in how we structured our qualification system.



I guess, to make an analogy, offering these spots to pros is a bit like offering pell grants to a Vanderbilt Legacy.



Again, they have the right to compete in these tournaments ANYWAY, inside their professional system. As long as they have that, it seems silly to duplicate their eligibility inside the US.

They also stand to gain heavily from teaching and coaching the US amateurs who DO go, and stand to gain financially from the creation of an American Pro system. This would be valuable in pushing that kind of structure forward.

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Tactics yes, Tact no...

Point 1 - By coming here, by acquiring citizenship, by supporting AGA events, by teaching us - these individuals show all manner of allegiance.

Point 2 - We have leeway as to HOW we select - not so much WHO we select.

Point 3 - Prohibiting our strongest players from participating smacks of affirmative action

Point 4 - I am not sure this is true. When pros move here in some permanent fashion, they have huge practical obstacles to their participating in qualification, and may be prohibited I suspect - enjoying some form of inactive status that keeps them "pro" but not providing access to events or support.

It comes down to whether you want pros to be here. Certainly, if it is "silly" to provide the ones that have come opportunities, why bother to create a system here at all?

I find there to be something distasteful about an EU team. This is pretty silly in an international event which is supposed to be between countries. Canadians playing for the USA, what the heck is that?

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Here we are not talking about their allegiance to the US, which they have clearly demonstrated. There is a conflict of interest between their dual allegiance to two separate go associations.

Also, not to denigrate their contributions (which have been great), but with the exception of the citizenship piece, they have been paid for both their support and their lessons.



There was a big hullaballoo about the requirements for representation a while back, I came down against the rules because I thought they raised barriers to US Citizens who, through their own cultural organizations, were isolated from AGA competition. While I disagreed with the specific rules, I think the AGA had the right to make them. HOW we select very much governs WHO we select.



Affirmative action involves individuals becoming eligible for awards based on some part of themselves that is fixed (I.e. race). I don't think that applies to a group that has the power to withdraw their affiliation with a foreign go association.



We need an official voice on this one, as long as they have professional status I believe they are eligible to compete.


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I don't think it comes down to that. I would like pros to be here, and so I would like our own system for our strongest players. I would rather there was not a conflict of interest. Also, I think the big draw for them is students, not tournaments.

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Tactics yes, Tact no...

Do you know this to be true in all cases? Genuine question, I don't know the rules.

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As I said to Horibe, I believe this is the case, but I'd like an official answer.

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Tactics yes, Tact no...

This is not true in almost all cases. In fact, I only know of one extraordinary exception.

@Shapenaji I don't see the issue surrounding having a pro system. There has been talk that there might be one started in 2012. If so, what will be different from today?

Or if your issue is that American amateurs aren't good enough to match professionals, as you suggested, you're not quite right. The best amateurs are just barely weaker than Ming Jiu Jiang and Feng Yun (two players have good records against Mingjiu and Feng Yun combined over the course of several games. Guess who?). There is a modest gap between them and the next set of amateurs, and from there, there is continuity all the way down.

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