Should white just resign, or try an invasion? Just curious to know your opinions.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . O X X . . . X X O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X O X X . . X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . X X X O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . X . . . X O O X O O O |
$$ | . . O O X X X X X . X X X O X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . O X O O X X . X . X X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X X . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O . O X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O O X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X . . . . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . . . X X X X O X X . X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X X O O O X O . X X . X |
$$ | . O O X X X X X O . O . O O O X O X . |
$$ | O O X X O O X O O . O . . O . O O X X |
$$ | . X X . . O O . . O . O O . . . O O O |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I see no where white can invade with a reasonable chance of succeeding. On the other hand a black invasion in the top right seems possible.
I wouldn't resign, since the game is almost over. So white should play out the last few moves and score the game.

_________________
Sanity is for the weak.

There is no way an invasion in that area could possibly work. Besides, White has to take care of this problem:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . O X X . . . X X O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X O X X . . X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . X X X O O . O 1 . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . X . . . X O O X O O O |
$$ | . . O O X X X X X . X X X O X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . O X O O X X . X . X X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X X . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O . O X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O O X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X . . . . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . . . X X X X O X X . X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X X O O O X O . X X . X |
$$ | . O O X X X X X O . O . O O O X O X . |
$$ | O O X X O O X O O . O . . O . O O X X |
$$ | . X X . . O O . . O . O O . . . O O O |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Okay, thanks. I actually did invade, and managed to eventually take out the O14 group and win, but got accused afterward of only playing N9 in the hope that black would make a mistake.

Guess they were right.

They were still whiny sore losers, though.

If you think it's genuinely uncertain and you have a good chance to live, then go for it. But if you know that it's completely unreasonable and you'd just be prolonging things, then it's much more polite to end the game. Between these two cases, there's not really a hard line, you have to use your judgment.

In this case, if you and your opponent are still at the level where there's a good probability white can actually live here, then I don't think your opponent has any right to complain if you invade and actually do live. So based off of what you said happened, I'm of the opinion that it was okay.

But you also have to ask yourself: why didn't you invade *before* playing basically every last endgame move?

wow. I don't see how you could have done that.

Well, they were right, but so are you. No need to feel bad about it -- they should've been more careful covering their own mistakes.

If you think that you can live, go for it. The fact that they accused you is just a sign of their weakness. Sure, they should have been able to kill you, but they didn't.

Sure, it takes a mistake by them for you to win - but you made mistakes to be behind in the first place.

If you think you have a chance to win, don't resign. If you think your opponent will need to make a mistake for you to live, it's still OK to try.

Eventually, you'll get to a certain level where you know with almost near certainty that it's pointless to try to live in the area. But you are playing against someone near your own rank, so if you think you've got a shot, go for it.

Nobody plays go perfectly. You make mistakes to get in a losing position, anyway. But just because you're in a losing position doesn't mean you can't turn the game around.

Anyway, if you think you have a chance, I highly recommend going for it. And don't be bothered if someone accuses you like this guy did. If he thought white should die, then he should have killed white. It's as simple as that. Let the stones do the talking.

_________________
be immersed

Which invasions are reasonable depends a lot on the strength of the players. Playing such an invasion against a 15k is different from playing it against a dan player. We all play hoping for the opponent to make a mistake, else how could we win. But which kind of mistake is reasonable changes with strength.

_________________
Sanity is for the weak.

Thanks everyone, again.



They were trying to poke out my eyeshapes and disconnect my groups, and didn't apparently take notice when I played N13, O13 and P13 and cut them off at N14. When I played Q13, they self-ataried at Q14.

They were 17k, though (handicap game) and I played just as many stupid mistakes earlier. If they had noticed before I fixed it, they could have taken out half of the bottom in a chain reaction.



It was a last act of desperation. I have no trouble admitting that.

I think that you are asking the wrong question. The right question might be: "Should I have tried invading 20 moves ago?" To which I, Lightvector, and everybody else in this thread would reply: "Yes!"

You are about 45 points down, and the game is almost over. And only now do you realize that it is time for desperate measures. How often do you count?

I recommend counting more often. Sometime, at least 20 moves ago, you could have counted, determined that you were behind, and made a much better invasion with a much better chance of succeeding.

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Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207

Thanks, I know that's great advice, but so far, I have not mastered the skill of counting mid-game. The best I can manage is to look at a completed (or almost completed) board and estimate relative territory, with varying degrees of success, depending how simple it is. I lost a group at J18 on the top a few moves before this, and at that point this was tilted far enough for me to recognize the gap and look for any remaining way to try to make it up.

If you could point me out to any counting tutorials, I'd be grateful. (The 'cover it with your thumb' thing doesn't work for me.)

i liked DrDtraw counting lessons on sensei:
http://senseis.xmp.net/?SteveFawthrop%2FCounting.
The ressource on this link is a bit dry ie poorly formatted.
What was useful for me :
-count in 2 : its quicker and its easier to count prisoners.

- when you are done counting your score, substract from 50 and start from here for you opponnent: if your opponent score is then bigger than 50 you are behind by that much. (ie if you have 35 start counting at 15 for your opponent)
i almost never count but when i do i use those 2 tricks.


-if you are unsure about area (tipcally the center but it can be an open side), dont count it at all (ie dont try to make imaginary sector line to try to guess how much you might fet) : then the score diff is an indication on how much you need to make in that area to win.
i even do that with big framework: i dont count them, and then deduce how much i can allow my opponent in its framework. Then i decide if i must dive deeply or not (in fact i rarely do this in practice cause i am lazy but i did it a couple times just after reading the counting lesson and it was useful to know how much i must remove from the opponent)

_________________
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.

Without looking at the position, if that is a real question, INVADE!

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

I'll check that out Perceval. Thanks! ^^

Bill,

I suppose none of this would have bothered me as much if the guy's 4k buddy hadn't popped in and backed up the loser with a lot of snide comments. Next time, I'll just leave when the whining starts.

I really hate that advice because people don't think about what it actually say. Instead if reducing your score from 50 and counting to get a meaningless number why don't you just reduc the opponent's score from yours? You don't need to remember both of them, count one of them, and then start from there counting down for your opponent, the number you get is the ACTUAL difference and not a meaningless number.

Games at around your rank are won and lost by moves that often heavily depend on the hope that the other player makes a grave mistake or doesn't "see" something. You wouldn't have been behind by so many points if you hadn't made mistakes, after all! Don't feel bad about it, really.

Besides, for your opponent this successful invasion in a position that isn't penetrable under "normal conditions" offered a great chance to go over the game and learn from his mistakes. So, you actually did him a favour.

If you can count backwards as easily and as quickly as you can count forwards, then why not? If, like normal people, you can count forward rapidly and are a little more prone to mistakes counting backwards, it's much easier to round up to fifty once and then start counting forward again.

Additionally, do people really count their own score and then their opponent's? I think it's much easier to do black and then white, because that way you never screw up komi.

Really? Never thought it can be harder to count backwards. It's exactly the same for me...

About which side to count first, I usually do it randomly. Start counting from the first territory that catches my eyes.

To my mind, the only way anyone wins this game is if their opponent makes a mistake. If no one makes a single mistake during the game, then white would always win by 0.5 komi.

That said, I am really curious how you won this game. Any chance of posting the SGF?

Why white?

_________________
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.