Hi,

For my fellow beginnners, I like to share, what I call tongue-in-cheek , a "Great Moyo" game between two 24k.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O O X . X X O O O O O O O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X .X . . X X X X X X. . O . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O O O . O . O X . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | O X X X O . O X . , . . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . O X X X O O X . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . X X X . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O X . X . X . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O . O X . . . . . . . . . . X O .. |
$$ | . O . O O X . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . . , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . O . O O X . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O X O X . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . O X X X X. . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Q1. Is White or Black winning?
Q2. It's Black's turn, where should he move?

(Note: In the interest of full disclosure, this game is still being played but it is 70 moves past the diagram, so your response will not influence the game.)

Cheers
tezza

_________________
____________
Ancora Imparo

Q1: black is winning
Q2: there are only one endgame to play R17

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

Q1 : Black is winning... but they are 24k so the result is still unclear

If they score now, white is about 60 points behind.

Q2 : something like L3 destroy the last hope of white if black is afraid of an invasion, but it's probably not even necessary

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O O X . X X O O O O O O O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . X X X X X X . . O . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O O O . O . O X . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | O X X X O . O X . , . . . . . X X X O |
$$ | . O X X X O O X . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . X X X . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O X . X . X . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O . O X . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O . O O X . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . . , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . O . O O X . . . . B . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O X O X . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . O X X X X . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

That this game has progressed for 70 more moves suggests that either you are using stone scoring or there is a center invasion in progress. Fun! However, as others have already pointed out, it would be hard for White to live in the center. Just for fun, I've superimposed some of the smallest living shapes on the board. They're quite large, aren't they?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O O X . X X O O O O O O O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . X X X X X X . . O . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . . . . W W . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X . . W . W W . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . W W . W . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . W W . . . X O . |
$$ | . O O O . O . O X . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | O X X X O . O X . , . . . . . X X X O |
$$ | . O X X X O O X . . . W W . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . X X X . . . W . W . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O X . X . X . . W W W . . X O . . |
$$ | . O . O X . . . . . W . W . . X O . . |
$$ | . O . O O X . . . . W W . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X . W W . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . O . O O X W . W . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O X O X W W W . W W W W W X O O . |
$$ | . O X X X X W . W . W . W . W X O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So no one would try white P3 peep + L3 aiming at P8 peep before passing?

_________________
Revisiting Go - Study Journal
My Programming Blog - About the evolution of my go bot.

At 24k, anything is possible.

But I don't think I would. A peep at P8 should only induce Black to connect (same with P3) and Black can't be stopped from connecting their solid right wall to the top wall at P or Q (miai), and it also looks unlikely white will be able to stop Black from connecting the top wall to the left. (Directly cutting at P8, as you can see, would just result in a trapped white stone, unless Black foolishly ignores the threat...which is a possibility at 24k, but not extremely likely.)

If there were more cutting points in Black's wall, White might hope to threaten Black into defending long enough to put the foundations of an inside moyo in place. It doesn't look to me like there are enough weak spots in the wall for that. You couldn't expect more than three or four free stones.

On the other hand, since this is a beginner's game, playing at B19 may provide Black some fun and profit. If White immediately connects at C18, Black is totally out of luck, but if they play A19, Black plays A18 to capture on the corner: after that (or if White doesn't play A19) whatever other move White makes, Black should play C18 next, because if White plays C19 to capture (or if White plays C19 to begin with) Black can catch the D19 group in a snapback. (And if they don't of course, Black plays C19 and captures without a fight)

These little tesuji tricks are awesome killers when you're very low-level, but once you get to around 17-15k, everyone knows them and it's not so easy to scam your opponents. But I still occasionally catch some players with a snapback setup.

Edit: Of course, if white captures at F19, you might have a nasty little ko fight interfere with your plan: maybe you should settle that before carrying out your scheme.

Hi,

Tryss and Araban must have read Black’s mind! Black did move at L3 (move 141).

As Loons (so you’re in NZ?) suggested, White peeped at P3 (move 148), coming close to forming an eye.

jts rightly surmised about the centre invasion. Agree with Inkwolf that at 24k, anything could have happened. But this time luck was on Black’s side, the centre invasion was fought off . Black eventually won by resignation.

Cheers,
tezza

_________________
____________
Ancora Imparo

So I guess this was played on a turned-based go server? If so, I think white should have estimated the score earlier. With time, that is not too hard even for beginners. In particular, it looks like white spent a lot of moves in the upper right crawling on the "line of defeat." It is often better to die than to live that way, as this game shows.

Hi snorri,

Yes, a turn-based game.

If White had instead crawled on the third line ("line of territory"), both upper and right side, could that have swung the game? I'm still trying to learn how "safe" is a big moyo.

Cheers
tezza

_________________
____________
Ancora Imparo

The simplest way to answer this question is to lay all the stones out on the board, and push the white stones on the upper and right side up a line. Then count the territory for both sides, and you'll know whether Black or White is ahead, and by how much.

But there is a second answer to this question: How is white going to crawl on the third line? White can't simply get up to the third line by force of will. Staying ahead of your opponent as you extend across the sides is important, because the person who is ahead can occasionally hane, forcing the race up or down a line. The person who is "pushing from behind" has no fewer options. Even if 3rd line territory could have turned this game around, you have to ask how white was going to get it, and what he would have had to give up to make that possible.

It depends. In professional games, one doesn't often see patterns like this, because one or the other player will be pushing from behind, which is usually bad, and will therefore try to get ahead. Very likely in get game, maybe of those moves either weren't sente or were bad sentes. If they weren't sente, then analyzing as if they were does not make sense. If they were bad sentes, then they are mistakes even before accurate positional assessment is possible.



Join the club.

Hi,

I laughed reading John Fairbairn’s “Are you a crab or a monkey?” (viewtopic.php?f=13&t=4583)

So in this game Black was the crab and White the monkey?

Cheers
tezza

_________________
____________
Ancora Imparo

Yes, you've gotten the gist of it.