138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

pancake · **#41**

I think this is a good position to analyze using tewari. After a sequence, I have to look if the marked exchange is good for me or not:

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Things I thought about were a, b, c, d, e, f, g, and tenuki

First, tenuki:

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I think if I tenuki, black will enter the corner and there's no nice way to take sente for me. Y is already reducing my influence, and Q is in a weird position, so it can be cut off with a (Y and Q are the marked stones). If I exchange b for c it can still be cutt off, so no way to take sente here. If I don't take sente, he will play something like d and my wall will look like a fool. For some new thoughts, see the pincervariations.

second option, a:

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After this, I think he has 2 options. If he plays further then b, I will invade immediately. If he plays b, I will kosumi-attach in the corner and make him overconcentrated. If he plays high instead, on c, I think I will tenuki. If he plays a I'll just play sansan.

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5 Is played elsewhere. The exchange of 6 for 7 is neutral now I think, maybe slightly better for me, since 6 is in a weird place. It's still very light and preventing me from making good shape on k3 though.

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5 Is played elsewhere. In this case, the exchange of 6 for 7 is good for me, because it takes away a LOT of the aji in the corner.

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3 is played elsewhere. In this case, I wouldn't know which is better. 4 is at a weird place, should be at 5 if he wants to attack, but 5 is maybe better at a. He can still enter my corner at 3-3 now and make my position look silly.
Another possibility for me is to play 3 at b, let him play c and tenuki. In that case, 4 for 5 is good for me. But black has nice shape on the left. This is also what would happen if I would play b first (option c in the first diagram). Conclusion: 1 is a possible move, and can't be bad for me.

option b:

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I think he has 2 options, at a and b. If he plays b, c will be disadvantegeous for me because of the marked exchange, so I will probably just play a and not worry about the invasion at f3, because I can fight hard, and he has a lot of unsettled groups still. So I think he will play a:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . 6 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 X . 4 . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 5 . . . Y . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . x . . Q . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I think the marked exchange is now slightly good for me, because there was some aji at x if he would have approached later. I can also think about playing like this, but I dislike it:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 X . a . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . 1 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 O 8 . . . . Y . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . 7 5 9 . b . Q . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

He will probably play a and I will play b. This feels too cramped, I'm totally pressed flat, where my marked stone was already low.

I already discussed c in a previous diagram, so I will look at options d/e now. Which will be basically the same, I think. I will discuss e, because I like the position better.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . 7 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 3 O 5 . . . . Y . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . 8 2 4 . . . Q . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . x . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . Q . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . 3 . . 4 . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . X X X . . . 5 . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

This reverts back to the tenuki diagram, but now the 'tenuki' would be the marked stone. Also, some new thoughts arise here. If I just play 3 here, then analyse the situation with tewari again, 4 for 5 seems a ridiculous exchange for black. I don't like this, because I get gote though. I think he will play something like x now.

edit: In the tenukivariation, I regret what I said, this should just be good for me with the 4-5 exchange. I regret not playing like this. (1 minute after I played)

Option f would result in a position like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 O . . . . . Y . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . a Q . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Using tewari here would be too ridiculous, but I'd rather have my marked stone at a, it feels like there is a lot of aji in the corner.

Finally, the last one, option g:

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I can play a or b here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 8 . 2 b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 1 3 . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . 6 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . a 4 O . . . . . Y . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . 9 . . . . Q . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Normally, after black plays a, white plays b. But because of the marked exchange b looks like just pushing from behind. So I think white's shape here is bad.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 1 4 . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . 3 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 7 . . . Y . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . Q . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I don't know about the placement of 8, it can be somewhere else. The marked exchange is neutral now, so I just dislike this joseki because of it's vulgarity, making black thick.

This leaves options a and b. I think I will play a, because he can make a mistake, and because he won't get as thick as when I play b.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . W . . . X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Solomon · **#42**

@pancake:

Nice analysis, but I'm surprised you didn't have this move to your list of candidate moves. Did you consider it?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Example game:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Fu Chong 4p vs. Zhang Wei 5p $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . O . . O . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Personally I'd rather play your option f; I don't think there is as much aji in the corner as you may think. For instance:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm9 Zhou Ruiyang 3p vs. Wang Lei 8p $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 O . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm9 Ma Xiaobing 4p vs. Wang Yao 6p $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 7 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 O . 6 . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

pancake · **#43**

By the way, any comments on my gamecommentary would be appreciated! I might be wrong in a couple of cases. Especially in fuseki, I think I can learn a lot.

edit: I didn't see your commentary yet Araban, thanks.

@araban

pancake · **#44**

by the way Araban: Which database do you use for searching for progames from specific positions?

Solomon · **#45**

pancake wrote:

by the way Araban: Which database do you use for searching for progames from specific positions?

SmartGo.

Loons · **#46**

Kombilo is most popular, I think. Oh. Or whatever smartgo is.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Edit: Misread the question. I use kombilo to manage my GoGoD database, just out of interest

pancake · **#47**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . W . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Loons · **#48**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

But now I'm going to sleep. Good night!

pancake · **#49**

I've had a busy day. I think I know where I want to play, but don't feel like making all the diagrams and explaining why right now. Also want to do a bit more thinking. I'll play tomorrow morning, sorry for the delay!

Loons · **#50**

No worries at all, please play at your own pace.

Pancake's comment suggests he feels there is an obvious move on this board.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm20 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . c . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I feel like these are three major moves to think about.

B doesn't seem very good right now.

A aiming at H17 invasion point (not too much) later is definitely a consideration.

Or what about C*- starting staking out an ambitious moyo using his two groups. I quite like C, actually, especially since black may have to live in gote in the bottom right at some point if it becomes sealed in. However, I feel C may be difficult for both players, considering black is a move ahead in invading/reducing the moyo (hurrah for :b5:

?).

A property of white's groups on this board is that nothing is really attackable, while black's stones on the bottom are somewhat thin and his moyo is still extremely fluffy. On the bright side, I can look forward to treating K4 flexibly. I would like to "fix" at C myself actually.

Black would like to cramp top left at some point in future with C12 (I think there is an interesting yose that can be played if black gets C12 and white D18). Black K4-O3 is a flexible extension (considered in a vacuum). R4-O3-Q3 would look like I very defensively secured a large knight's enclosure, which perhaps makes sense in the face of white thickness.

All up I do feel like I had a relatively satisfactory fuseki.

*Or rather somewhere near C. Against C, it seems black attach-on-top may be too easy. I vote white A, 3-3 invasion. Though it may be gote for white...

Solomon · **#51**

Loons · **#52**

gaius · **#53**

Araban wrote:

that, or:

@pancake: you're Michiel, right? Cool to see you here

pancake · **#54**

My instinct wants me to play here, I don't like the look of things if black plays a, it feels like he gets control of the board. Also, gotta love the aji at b.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

The following sequence is 'best for both' according to After Joseki. (1 is a random tenuki)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . 3 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . 2 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 5 . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . 6 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

If black plays 1 below, his moyo gets kind of intimidating though.. I feel like entering the corner makes it too solid, so maybe I should play at a afterwards.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . a . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

If I play at a, this would be a possible continuation, it feels like I have nothing..

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 . . X . . . . 5 4 . W 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . 6 . 2 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . 7 . 8 . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Ok, maybe I should have a closer look at the corner invasion.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . 2 1 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 4 5 . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 7 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 a . . . . . . . . . 2 1 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 4 . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I have about 48 solid points, with komi that's 54.5. But there's almost no way for me to get more.
Black has 15 points, plus whatever is on top. I think he can maken about 8 points more on the bottom later I think. So let's say he should make the top at least 55 - 23 = 32 points to win. I think he will immediately play a, then 24 points on top are already solid territory. Making 32 points should be easy then. I think I have a lost game like this.

So maybe my first move was wrong? Where should I play then?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . a . . . . . b . d c . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . Y . . . . . X e . . | $$ | . . . . . f . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Y . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Some interesting points are a-f. f feels like I'm only trying to reduce him, while not making anything myself. I think d and e are a bit weird-ish if the marked black stones are that far away, because it's strengthening his 4-4. c is possible, but I think he will take sente and play f. b I dislike because I'm not gaining anything myself. So a remains:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X 5 W 2 4 7 6 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . 1 3 X 9 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I can't play 2 at 3, because I don't have the ladder. Neither do I have any good ladderbreakers to play beforehand. If he plays like this, I shouldn't have any problem living. a looks very scary, but he has to come back at b first. I'm not entirely convinced it's good, but I'll go with this. edit: Actually I have NO Idea if this is any better then b or the corner invasion, but I can't seem to find anything I find acceptable

.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . W . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

@gaius: Yes I am, nice to be here!

pancake · **#55**

Sorry for the late response again by the way. It took a day later then I expected. I shouldn't be this busy, but somehow I end up without any time most of the week.

Loons · **#56**

ez4u · **#57**

Araban wrote:

@pancake:

Nice analysis, but I'm surprised you didn't have this move to your list of candidate moves. Did you consider it?
[Hide]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Example game:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Fu Chong 4p vs. Zhang Wei 5p $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . O . . O . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

...

Obs:

Loons · **#58**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

So. So so so. I want to make entering top right worse for white. I have had a somewhat flirtatious relationship with this cap in the past. Here, this move I feel threatens something of a splitting attack if white now enters top right properly. It does allow white to capture F17 if he likes, but- it is just one stone.
A database search affirms all my suggestions are played.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 I felt like giving white top in exchange for influence towards the very open and also contested centre was not going to be the best solution. $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . O 4 6 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . 5 1 2 X 7 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 I think our board is not going to let me happily fight this ko. $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 5 8 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X 7 O 3 6 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . 1 2 X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 I ended up feeling this was a bit slack, and is the sort of move that may be good if I had supporting thickness to the right. $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 This and the last diagram suggest living with F17 specifically is important, of which I'm not necessarily convinced. $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Edit: Somehow, I am immediately second guessing my choice. I actually really want to play F17 for some reason. Oh well, what can ya do.

Bill Spight · **#59**

My instincts:

Loons · **#60**

138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

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