Piracy in the Go industry.

snorri · **#101**

John Fairbairn wrote:

I don't think this is a "contribution" (of my type), so I'm not breaching my intentions, but it's been interesting to see that once the dam broke the piracy confessions have flooded out, which makes me even happier that I've decided to drop out. The pirates think they've lost nothing, but at least they've lost my contributions, whatever they were worth.

A lot of non-pirates lose, too. I own 1 of your books (Kamakura) and it is so awesome that it takes me much time to go through it and it seems to resist any kind of rushing very stubbornly. I fully intend to buy all of your books (I own over 150 go books on various topics in various languages, none pirated) but actually you may be the first go author who seems to have the ability to publish books faster than I can read them. Most go books are the equivalent of cheap romance novels. You can read them whenever, wherever and at a rapid pace since very little new information is being conveyed. Kamakura is certainly not like that and I'm sure the others are top quality as well.

Since I have never met you in person (I have met T Mark a few times) I sometimes suspect that you are not an individual but more like the Bourbaki. I hope you do not disappear form L19, but rather take up some psuedonyms and challenge us all from different directions. And I do read New In Go, so I hope you can continue with that.

If your books start to look like they will go out of print, I may have to pre-buy them faster than I can handle them, something I am loathe to do. I definitely think they are worth the money but I'd have to find place to hide them from my wife. Maybe I can get a gun safe to put in the crawl space. It's always may job to go there if there is a problem with the plumbing or rodents or whatever anyway. But then I'd have to start explaining to my wife why my workouts in the basement suddenly result in being covered in dirt. Maybe I need a bachelor friend to hold them for me, like an adult film collection. This requires some thought...

Mef · **#102**

hyperpape wrote:

John has said he's bowed out, but I am confused by one point: he said the pirates have won just after mentioning that his own book was not being published, but then says that his books sold very well and he was not complaining about his own sales.

How do you reconcile those comments? Is it that Slate and Shell is going under entirely and thus will publish no books, or that the good sales of Kamakura etc. aren't enough to justify new books, or what? Maybe I don't understand publishing so well.

Well assuming we are talking about his Jowa book (based on the comment that spawned this thread) his actual statements were:

- A single go book (Kamakura) had unusually strong sales
- A second go book (Jowa) was delayed in the print queue

A couple ways these could be reconciled:

"The success of a single title has not been enough to offset the overall negative outlook for go book market to an extent the publisher must carefully time when they produce and release a new title."

or

"While one title has shown success, publishers must still wait until they have recouped the costs of other titles already printed before they can continue to put out new titles."

or perhaps even

"Given that a single title has shown profitability in an otherwise diminishing market, publishers are taking more care in choosing only titles that appear to be capable of recovering costs in a reasonable timeframe"

(Note: this would also explain why his problem book is also having trouble getting published)

shyin · **#103**

Araban wrote:

Also, regarding my own views on the matter: Piracy is something that can't be stopped with the given technology today and business models have to work with it, not fight against it. DRM and lecturing people on how piracy is bad and sending pirates on a guilt trip is a waste of time and effort. Look at Crunchyroll. Spotify. Steam. If it's convenient and reasonably priced, you can take my money.

Unfortunately, Crunchyroll have terrible subs with some sentences even missing sometimes. Instead, they just put a "?" when they can't translate, which for a paid service, is actually offensive, in my opinion. But I agree with you, I can't see why people still try to fight piracy. It's just not going to work, no matter how many websites are closed or how many people are arrested.

hyperpape · **#104**

Mef, he actually said that the other 5 titles were almost as successful as Kamakura. Or perhaps he meant close to a second printing. I'm not 100% sure based on the phrasing.

The point about recouping costs is also a reasonable possibility.

RobertJasiek · **#105**

shyin wrote:

I can't see why people still try to fight piracy.

If pirats aren't fought, then they will become as successful as thieves who are not fought. If anarchy is not fought, then the world lives in anarchy instead of having high culture societies.

cata wrote:

I stole a whole bunch of Go books

IMO, such statements on this forum violate the spirit of the forum rule "6. Piracy / Posts requesting for anything illegal or copyrighted are not allowed." because they request acknowledgement for having done some copyright violation and try to establish a discussion climate in that an increasing number of such statements buries defense of copyright.

Quote:

they've helped me a fair bit. [...] some silly pirated PDF.

They can't be both: A source for having helped you a fair bit and silly.

cata · **#106**

RobertJasiek wrote:

They can't be both: A source for having helped you a fair bit and silly.

Sorry, I thought my meaning was clear. I mean that it's possible to distribute digital books in a manner that is both more convenient and more valuable than getting a typically low-quality scanned pirate copy, and since that seems to be winning the day in other forms of digital media (games, music, TV & movies) I expect it will be the future of Go books too.

tchan001 · **#107**

All this talk about piracy is going to frustrate reputable publishers and authors (existing and potential) from publishing more high quality go books. Soon all that will be left to publish will be those annoying books which just pirate freely from what is available on the internet and print it up for unsuspecting purchasers. Amazing books like this one
http://www.amazon.co.uk/game-equipment- ... 6130079648

previously discussed about the above book on this thread
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1523

CnP · **#108**

Sorry but I have a hard time believing that all of a sudden new Go books will stop being published ever again. However, suppose all three existing major publishers (who apparently only publish Go books because they are lovely chaps) decide not to bother any more, if there's a 5 or 10 year period where no new books get published in English someone with the right knowledge and experience will decide there's a market for one/some (even if it's 'just' another group of passionate players with no desire to get rich off it).

tchan001 · **#109**

Well if you take the case of Yutopian and you look at the number of new go books they put out vs the number of go books they have on perpetual monthly discounts of 25%-30%, you can feel a sense of their frustration at trying to get rich with publishing go books.

RobertJasiek · **#110**

CnP wrote:

no desire to get rich

It is impossible to become rich by publishing or writing Western go books. Somebody wishing to get rich could become an investment banker.

p2501 · **#111**

I've read the thread and know all the arguments presented... but seriously all of you advocating piracy, especially of go books, make me sick. There are no words to describe my disgust.

'Piracy will always be there, so publishers will have to deal with it' - how can that even be an argument...

tchan001 · **#112**

Helel wrote:

p2501 wrote:

all of you advocating piracy, especially of go books, make me sick. There are no words to describe my disgust.

Helel, I'd think a publisher or an author would feel your avatar as being even more appropriate in their dealing with people who advocate piracy on public forums. lol

topazg · **#113**

p2501 wrote:

I've read the thread and know all the arguments presented... but seriously all of you advocating piracy, especially of go books, make me sick. There are no words to describe my disgust.

'Piracy will always be there, so publishers will have to deal with it' - how can that even be an argument...

Who do you think is actually advocating piracy in the form of "getting stuff for free and never paying for it"?

hyperpape · **#114**

I'd forgotten how absolutist anti-piracy positions spoil your ability to use logic.

Tchan: Wikipedia is creative commons. If that book acknowledges that it's taken from Wikipedia, it is not piracy. Since none of us are stupid enough to buy that book, we don't know.

Robert: Acknowledging that one pirates books does not constitute asking for illegal material. It's amazing that the person on the boards who has the most detailed understanding of the minutiae of go rules cannot parse a simple and unambiguous English statement when he finds it inconvenient.

p2501: I'm not sure whether anyone in this thread is advocating piracy--probably someone is, given 120 posts, but that's not the norm. To say that we should not take particular means to fight piracy is not advocating piracy, any more than people who oppose the drug war must really really want you to shoot up heroin (I think that's an ok political analogy).

I refuse to call what topazg describes doing as piracy in anything but a technical* sense. If you disagree and think he's reprehensible, I hope you also advocate shooting jaywalkers.

* Which isn't much of a technical sense at all, since pirates kill people while digital pirates copy information.

Now, there are plenty of smart discussions about the proper nature of IP law or the best approach to piracy. Let's have those if we're gonna keep talking.

p2501 · **#115**

I probably jumped to gun so to speak.

I understand that for the sake of a proper discussion, one must present counter arguments even if they oppose ones own opinion. I also understand that helel is just trying to provoke a little bit.

The cause for me getting so riled up is spread of the entire thread. With people admitting to pirating go books, people trolling Robert just because, illogical arguments, people just wanting to be right, ...

On the one hand I have a big interest in the discussion and on the other hand I try hard to stay out of it, give the manner in which it is conducted.

hyperpape · **#116**

jts wrote:

quantumf wrote:

How does this kickstart model work for (a) new authors that no one has heard of and hence have no trust in; and (b) consumers who put money up for a book that turns out to be lousy?

The same dilemma currently exists, it's just the publishers who eat the losses for a miserable book rather than the community at large. (Although perhaps the consumers still eat the loss for a book that turns out to be physically lousy.) I suppose a publisher or editor gets to see a draft of a book before approving any payments, but I'm sure the same thing could be arranged on Kickstart.

Someone I dislike (but that's not really the point) used Kickstarter to shop his book around. He offered a sample chapter and made periodic updates to a blog about the topic while soliciting donors. He also was professionally employed in a related field, but that's actually less of a testimony than an established go author.

I'd say most unknown authors shouldn't solicit kickstarter for books. Really, in the internet age, there shouldn't be many unknown book authors. There will be reasons why some people won't fit this mold, but the average first book author should have forum posts, blog posts or articles of some kind to make a name.

RobertJasiek · **#117**

hyperpape wrote:

It's amazing that the person on the boards who has the most detailed understanding of the minutiae of go rules cannot parse a simple and unambiguous English statement when he finds it inconvenient.

Another attempt of a meta-discussion about myself I do not join.

kirkmc · **#118**

RobertJasiek wrote:

hyperpape wrote:

It's amazing that the person on the boards who has the most detailed understanding of the minutiae of go rules cannot parse a simple and unambiguous English statement when he finds it inconvenient.

Another attempt of a meta-discussion about myself I do not join.

But you did join it, just now. If not, you would simply have not responded.

hyperpape · **#119**

RobertJasiek wrote:

hyperpape wrote:

It's amazing that the person on the boards who has the most detailed understanding of the minutiae of go rules cannot parse a simple and unambiguous English statement when he finds it inconvenient.

Another attempt of a meta-discussion about myself I do not join.

Fair enough, but the main point of that response was not personal--saying "I pirate books" is not asking for illegal material. It's not even necessarily advocacy.

tchan001 · **#120**

hyperpape wrote:

RobertJasiek wrote:

hyperpape wrote:

It's amazing that the person on the boards who has the most detailed understanding of the minutiae of go rules cannot parse a simple and unambiguous English statement when he finds it inconvenient.

Another attempt of a meta-discussion about myself I do not join.

Fair enough, but the main point of that response was not personal--saying "I pirate books" is not asking for illegal material. It's not even necessarily advocacy.

It's just documenting an admission of guilt.

Piracy in the Go industry.

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