Scottish championship game

tapir · **#21**

hyperpape wrote:

tapir wrote:

However, I find it hilarious that people look for the rank first - not on the content of advice given.

It's because of the "fundamental weakness" bit. Saying move 72 is not necessary is specific factual advice. We can judge whether it's right or wrong based on the board, regardless of the speaker. Saying "you have a fundamental weakness" is setting yourself above someone else's go in order to judge it. I'm sure tetron is a nice guy or gal and didn't mean it that way, but that's the kind of comment it is--maybe appropriate for your teacher, not so much for a stranger your rank or below.

I have taken lessons from professionals and nobody ever told me anything like "you have a fundamental weakness in xyz". This is exactly the kind of comment a good teacher will never make, regardless of his rank. Even if a 7 dan says that, it doesn't become a good advice. Rather you hear things like "this is too soft" or "here the game really starts" (when the fight breaks out and your weakness starts to show), "you can do this better", "what was your plan here" or "you should stand in the corner"

until you finally get it...

hyperpape · **#22**

tapir wrote:

I have taken lessons from professionals and nobody ever told me anything like "you have a fundamental weakness in xyz". This is exactly the kind of comment a good teacher will never make, regardless of his rank. Even if a 7 dan says that, it doesn't become a good advice. Rather you hear things like "this is too soft" or "here the game really starts" (when the fight breaks out and your weakness starts to show), "you can do this better", "what was your plan here" or "you should stand in the corner"

until you finally get it...

I thought about hedging even further that a teacher might not make a comment because it's too deflating, or unhelpful, but I just left it with "maybe". But I think that almost adds to what I was saying.

Bill Spight · **#23**

tetron wrote:

You have a fundamental weakness in your fighting. It is not about individual moves but your general approach. Just because a group can't be killed doesn't mean that it is yet alive. You need to attack groups in ways that help your global position. Instead you keep playing unnecessary defensive moves.

I do not think that you need to label comments with rank. "You have a fundamental weakness" pretty well screams kyu player.

That said, it is worth thinking about whether one is making unnecessary defensive moves.

Weaker players can often see flaws that we are blind to.

Quote:

The classic example of this was :w52:

you should play H3

H3 is a typo for H2, OC. I am sure that Stable is quite aware of the cluelessness of that comment. White's plan was to give up territory for the attack. H2 would have been inconsistent with that plan. OC, whether that was a good plan or not is another question.

Bill Spight · **#24**

shapenaji wrote:

I disagree with Bill Spight on this, I don't think W12 feels small at all.

I think you know what I meant, but just to be clear: I do not object to :w12:

per se. I think that the White formation is too small for this early in the opening. IMO, the problem lies with :w10:

or

.

Stable · **#25**

I didn't expect to cause so much controvery! I think all the arguments have been made, but I will say that I'm never offended by critical comments when I have posted a game asking for them. It's good to critically analyse the comments received as well, no matter who they come from.

With the H2 thing I did look at and reject the move in the game, but of course as has been pointed out the question is less interesting, because better play would not have allowed the situation to arise. :cool:

Ironically I usually am told that fighting is my strong point, as this game shows it's certainly not joseki knowledge or direction of play!

I always find it very humbling having a game reviewed and finding that my weaknesses are deeper than they first appear. Tapir's comment about chickening out particularly struck home. Thanks!

shapenaji · **#26**

Bill Spight wrote:

shapenaji wrote:

I disagree with Bill Spight on this, I don't think W12 feels small at all.

I think you know what I meant, but just to be clear: I do not object to :w12:

per se. I think that the White formation is too small for this early in the opening. IMO, the problem lies with :w10:

or

.

The 3-space extension after splitting the side though is quite common, that black chose NOT to invade it immediately and leave aji was what seemed unusual to me. Since he didn't white's slide and protect is enormous. W can't afford to leave that position after black makes the high extension from his 4x4.

white doesn't even lose sente, because black needs to attend to his top group. I think that particular result was better for white.

However, once white had that strength, it seems odd to go to the point on the lower side, conventional wisdom would say that it's big to stop a double wing, but given that white has a strong position on the right, I don't think the double-wing is as powerful, and I think making the knights-move enclosure in the upper right is most urgent.

Bill Spight · **#27**

shapenaji wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:

shapenaji wrote:

I disagree with Bill Spight on this, I don't think W12 feels small at all.

I think you know what I meant, but just to be clear: I do not object to :w12:

per se. I think that the White formation is too small for this early in the opening. IMO, the problem lies with :w10:

or

.

The 3-space extension after splitting the side though is quite common, that black chose NOT to invade it immediately and leave aji was what seemed unusual to me. Since he didn't white's slide and protect is enormous. W can't afford to leave that position after black makes the high extension from his 4x4.

Good. We clearly disagree here. I think that White can afford to approach the top right corner (after the one space jump) from the top side, leaving the possibility of the Black invasion on the right side, as long as the corner is still open. If Black protects the corner, then White can protect the right side, and be satisfied with having gotten the extension on the top side.

Quote:

white doesn't even lose sente, because black needs to attend to his top group. I think that particular result was better for white.

We disagree that this was better for White. This early in the game I would have tenukied or made a 2 space extension for :w8:

.

Quote:

However, once white had that strength, it seems odd to go to the point on the lower side, conventional wisdom would say that it's big to stop a double wing, but given that white has a strong position on the right, I don't think the double-wing is as powerful, and I think making the knights-move enclosure in the upper right is most urgent.

Here we agree about preventing the double wing.

I think that a sanrensei on the left side suggests itself. (I assume you mean the upper left, not the upper right, but I am not sure which enclosure you mean.)

shapenaji · **#28**

Bill Spight wrote:

Good. We clearly disagree here. I think that White can afford to approach the top right corner (after the one space jump) from the top side, leaving the possibility of the Black invasion on the right side, as long as the corner is still open. If Black protects the corner, then White can protect the right side, and be satisfied with having gotten the extension on the top side.

The thing is, if white doesn't take the slide, black gets to either make the diagonal attachment to white's stone, or the descent to 4x2. Either way, White must respond and becomes heavy, black already has a good stone in place on the other side, and then black can get an attack going, building up his framework in the lower right.

I think that's where we disagree, I don't think w has miai here. black can make white heavy. After the sequence in the game, black has no way to attack to build up his bottom right.

Quote:

Here we agree about preventing the double wing.

I think that a sanrensei on the left side suggests itself. (I assume you mean the upper left, not the upper right, but I am not sure which enclosure you mean.)

Yes, I meant upper left. san-ren-sei is definitely big, the problem is, when black approaches the upper-left, the power of san-ren-sei (the pincer), is not actually threatened, because black already has a stone on the upper side. So, instead, once you have the solid position on the right, I would extend from the star point in the upper left, threatening to invade black's long extension from his upper right, black must jump into the center, and then I can tend to either the left or the bottom, I suspect the bottom would then be more valuable.

hyperpape · **#29**

I hate to spoil a good disputation, but I looked at Gobase and...

cyclops · **#30**

wow, I got the elephants start fighting! What about a Malko: Bill against Shape!

Stable · **#31**

Hyperpape - what IS the most common continuation?

Magicwand · **#32**

is what i would have played and many professionals will agree also.

Javaness2 · **#33**

I didn't really look at the game much, but Black 25 and White 24... well this sequence shows us that Black is ahead at this point.
After Black 73, Black has won.
Maybe you can find a way to turn around the game in between these moves?

Bill Spight · **#34**

Magicwand wrote:

:w12: is what i would have played and many professionals will agree also.

I don't think that there is any disagreement about what to play after :b11:

.

The main question is about :w10:

, whether tenuki is OK.

Bill Spight · **#35**

hyperpape wrote:

I hate to spoil a good disputation, but I looked at Gobase and...

It is true that I do not care for :w8:

, but I do not care for :w6:

, either. I am aware that pros play :w10:

, just looking at the right side. But I do not like it so early in the opening, for the reasons I gave. I also realize that when you distinguish early from late opening, you are unlikely to get consensus. That's why I just talked about how it feels.

Bill Spight · **#36**

I did a whole board search of the GoGoD database (only through 2006, I am afraid). Here are the results:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W White 10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . g . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X b c . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . f . . . . . , . . . . a , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . e . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The heavy favorite was "a" (16x), then "b" (4x), "c" (3x), "d" (2x), "e" (2x), and "f" (1x), out of a total of 28 games. No votes for my suggestion, "g".

Bill Spight · **#37**

shapenaji wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:

Good. We clearly disagree here. I think that White can afford to approach the top right corner (after the one space jump) from the top side, leaving the possibility of the Black invasion on the right side, as long as the corner is still open. If Black protects the corner, then White can protect the right side, and be satisfied with having gotten the extension on the top side.

The thing is, if white doesn't take the slide, black gets to either make the diagonal attachment to white's stone, or the descent to 4x2. Either way, White must respond and becomes heavy, black already has a good stone in place on the other side, and then black can get an attack going, building up his framework in the lower right.

I think that's where we disagree, I don't think w has miai here. black can make white heavy. After the sequence in the game, black has no way to attack to build up his bottom right.

Database searches are interesting, but I don't think that they usually prove much, especially about the opening. However, I do think that they do provide a defense against the charge that White becomes heavy.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W White 10 = tenuki $$ -------------- $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . X . X . c . | $$ . . . . b . . | $$ . d . . O . . | $$ . . e . . . . | $$ . . . . a . . | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . . . , O . . | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . . . , X . . | $$ . . X . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ --------------[/go]

Using this search area, I found 93 games, 21 with Black moving next. So White tenukied at least 21 times. Black most often invaded at "a" (11x), followed by "b" (7x), then "c", "d" and "e" (1x each).

I do not think that pros would tenuki more than 20% of the time if it meant that White would become heavy.

cyclops · **#38**

tapir wrote:

.......... His comment on White 72 is at least according to my reading correct, and of course upon seeing Black 73 White is hopeless. So even when you are not sure, how on earth can you defend? .........

To get the minutes right: this critics originates from mumps ( post #4 )

tetron · **#39**

shapenaji wrote:

You don't have to write anything for the rank if you don't think you have an accurate one right now. But I have a feeling here that, while you are maybe not 5k, you are not strong enough to be certain about your criticism of a 1d-2d KGS game. That is not to say your criticism is strictly wrong, but an attitude of humility would go far.

I didn't really intend to join a Go forum at the moment, I only wanted to post a quick comment about WMSG, so didn't study what boxes were optional and then got drawn in...

I should have shown humility but it is not easy to think you can help a stronger player :sigh:

I have no problem with being judged at 5 kyu strength, as in, it indicates anyone with a higher ratings analysis should be given greater weight than mine.
But, IMHO, Comments should be judged on whether they are constructive, not overall playing strength. I probably failed on this point so far in this thread. :oops:

(Warning! I am about to fail to be humble :sorry: )
I intended to make an observation based upon my experience of the wide variety of games other than go that I have played, a few even at the top level.

I originally wanted to make a key psychological point rather than any technical points so I shouldn't really have made suggestions on specific moves. I was hoping to illustrate but instead distracted.
(I probably should have started with a question to the Original poster (OP) that I will pose shortly, but instead used my read on stable's thinking.)

I felt that when the OP was playing a group of moves with a purpose that on more than one occasion
he abandoned his plan far too easily.

In any competitive game you have to learn to trust your analysis and you should always play to win (or draw).

If your opponent plays a move that challenges your earlier evaluation and current plan, then, unless the situation is readable to an exact failed outcome, you must respond by one of the following:

1) start a contest to try to enforce your original evaluation
2) find a deep (or inspirational) combination trap that allows your current plan to continue to work
3) come-up with a radically new plan to win.

2) or 3) require at least 5 minutes concentrated thought and 1) would put black under the kind of pressure that was sadly lacking in this game.

In many instances, 1) will invovle a fight for the game. The discipline to read fights through is important
but trivial compared to the will not to yield your plan.

If your original evaluation told you that you should win a fight and it is impossible to win the game without winning this fight
then it is correct to follow this fight through to the bitter end.

On the occasions, in Go, that you lose by an extra 100+ points as a result of this fight. It is important to realise that the losing mistake
was either in your original plan, or evaulation (such as this group has 2 eyes) and this is what needs to be improved.

Without, learning these skills doubts can manifest at any level and you can often waste time thinking when there is no choice, only to find you needed the time later and no longer have it.

Question to stable:
What was your evaluation of strengths and weaknesses and plan to win in the position after :b45:

?

While it is not the biggest move in the game, I think this is the most useful analytical point in the game with regards planning.
I am confident at your probably had a reasonable plan to win at this stage which might be very different from what my plan would be but I don't think you committed to it strongly enough.

To me when I look at the outcome after :b73:

the position looks almost hopeless and I picked on :w72:

as the last chance to instigate 1).

How my go brain was working
I will foolishly follow-up on my more spurious comments where my shape recognition screamed at me but I am out of my depth to what should be done.

My comment on B13 is that I believe it is a move without a plan at a stage when a plan is critical and that is why I exageratedly described it as very poor.

I don't think that it achieves anything with regards a plan winning the game...

a) K17 is not close enough to the black corner group to be guaranteed connected.
So does it make the black top corner group strong enough to fight with impunity.
b) It is not near enough the top left corner to have a secure extension which attacks the corner and build territory at the same time.
c) Nor is it likely to be a particularly useful anchor or ladder break for a fight
or invasion that happens on the bottom or left of the board and is compartively small

I am not sure what the right move is in this spot there is so much open space on the left.
But it absolutlely has to have a long-term plan! A position this open would require a pro to find the biggest move.

To play L17 is much stronger.

I would personally probably try K3 it makes an extension that is further away from the white influence.
It strengthens a move such as P9 and if white attacks the top black group from underneath then as it extends it puts pressure on the white group on the right hand side.
so I can attack by extend the bottom left corner group. When combined with a group on the left hand side.

Bill Spight · **#40**

tetron wrote:

How my go brain was working
I will foolishly follow-up on my more spurious comments where my shape recognition screamed at me but I am out of my depth to what should be done.

My comment on B13 is that I believe it is a move without a plan at a stage when a plan is critical and that is why I exageratedly described it as very poor.

I don't think that it achieves anything with regards a plan winning the game...

a) K17 is not close enough to the black corner group to be guaranteed connected.
So does it make the black top corner group strong enough to fight with impunity.
b) It is not near enough the top left corner to have a secure extension which attacks the corner and build territory at the same time.
c) Nor is it likely to be a particularly useful anchor or ladder break for a fight
or invasion that happens on the bottom or left of the board and is compartively small

I am not sure what the right move is in this spot there is so much open space on the left.
But it absolutlely has to have a long-term plan! A position this open would require a pro to find the biggest move.

To play L17 is much stronger.

I would personally probably try K3 it makes an extension that is further away from the white influence.
It strengthens a move such as P9 and if white attacks the top black group from underneath then as it extends it puts pressure on the white group on the right hand side.
so I can attack by extend the bottom left corner group. When combined with a group on the left hand side.

Out of curiosity I did some database searches of the GoGoD database that I have. (Through 2006). No pro game matched this one after :w12:

. However, searching as much of the top, bottom, and left sides as permitted a match suggested possible moves for :b13:

.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm13 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . 1 1 . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 1 1 . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The most popular choices were the corner approaches, followed by the extension to K-17, as in the game. The wedge and other extensions were also played. Note that J-04 and K-04 were preferred to J-03 and K-03.

Scottish championship game

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