I have Smartgo Kifu on my Ipad and so far I've been using it mainly to work through the problems, along with some 9x9 games. I also bought Igowin Life for my Ipod Touch and I do those problems when I'm on a bus or train. I read the post this morning about the book sale at Kiseido and I have a question about the book series Graded Go Problems for Beginners. The 4 beginner books are widely recommended here, but they cost a total of $84. Is there a significant advantage, in terms of the learning opportunities, to doing the problems in the books as opposed to the problems that are contained in these apps?

I have just started going through the Graded Go Problems for Beginners after doing lots of problems on places like goproblems, smartgo and wbaduk. For me, I am always too tempted to start clicking through the answer and basically trying what looks right until I get it. Reading the book does a little more to force me into actually reading through the problem to arrive at the answer as opposed to clicking and guessing.

So, if you have more restraint than I do, then the smartgo option may be better. I think actually reading the book has personally helped me to slow down and look at the situation and arriving at the correct answer. Plus I'm not distracted by other things because with the book, I can only read it and can't play games or browse the web

I like the series very much, but please note that those four cover difficulty from around 25 kyu to 2-3 kyu (no matter what the back sides say, the vol 4 is quite hard and definitely not 10-15k), so you might be OK with just two of them if you're not a complete beginner.

Especially when compared to goproblems.com, I feel the quality of problems is way higher, and even SmartGo Kifu / Pro problems have a bit of that "from my game in KGS" feel in them. And as the previous poster said, you don't get click-happy.

I'd also consider the "1001 life and death problems", and "501 tesuji problems" books, with my limited enthusiasm for tsumego, they last like forever.

I'd change "501 Tesuji Problems" for "Get Strong at Tesuji" (it even has more problems: 534 ^^) because the first one is really hard and in my opinion better suited for Dan players.

To your question: I don't know the problems from SmartGo Kifu but I think the Graded Go Problems for Beginners series is the best to systematically start studying Tsumegos and Tesujis in every part of the game. So it is never wrong to use these books.
Of course you can easily do without them since there are a lot of free problems on the internet but in my opinion there is no collection of problems which will guide you step-by-step over the ranks to high single digit Kyu.
The books introduce (almost?) every vital point and capturing technique and let you practice it with a lot of problems (over 3000 in total if I remember correctly), so it is really a groundwork for climbing the ranks - but of course not the only one.

So, in a nutshell, by going through the Graded Go Problems for Beginners series you will definitely learn everything there is to know to become high single digit Kyu - I never experienced something different.
That's certainly an advantage. But as I said, I don't know what SmartGo Kifu offers and if it is better, equally good or worse than the Graded Go Problems for Beginners series.

_________________
My "guide" to become stronger in Go

I have for Android GoGrinder with the set of problems from here http://senseis.xmp.net/?GoElementaryTra ... velTesting

You can do the same for iPhone. I find the problem sets are just made better.

Isn't manyfaces using the problems from graded go problems? I vaguely remember something of that kind. And since Igowin Life is created by the same programmer, I wouldn't be surprised if it used the same problem set.

_________________
Sanity is for the weak.

Yes, MFoG contains the problems from all four books. Igowin Life contains at least some of them as well (I only played with it for a bit), so I think you're probably right.

I ended up ordering the first two books. I'm finding that Igowin Life problems are presented in a scattered manner over a wide range of difficulty levels. This is fine for an entertaining drill (I enjoy doing problems) but not so good for study.

I did realize when I was attempting some of the more difficult problems that I ended up just clicking on different possible answers. If the problems were presented in a more structured manner I could learn to restrain my 'trigger' finger, but since there's usually no explanation to go along with a problem, when I don't have a clue to the solution I really don't have any other way to find the right answer.

I echo what others have said. I personally think the books are worth it. The "graded" title is accurate in that the problems steadily increase in difficulty and the mix of problems is very well thought out. At least to me, the mix of problems hold my interest better than almost any other problem book (matched only by Get Strong at Tesuji). The Graded Go Problems set does not give you the same type of problem over and over (i.e., you won't see 100 nakade/dead inside shape problems in a row). This last point can be a downside for some people, but I like the variation. And the problem types do repeat, just not several in a row.

Volume 1 is really easy, and probably suited for real beginners maybe through KGS 15kyu. I know you already ordered the books, but you could probably go straight to volume 2. But it can be good to work through problems "below" your level to warm up and review--I still work through Volume 2, though I try to do it quickly without any mistakes.

As SoDesuNe mentioned, Get Strong at Tesuji is my other favorite problem book. There are hard problems mixed in but they are all marked (1-3 stars, 3 being hardest). You can always skip those and go back to them. I like working on the mix of hard-easy problems--easy ones build my confident and hard ones strengthen my reading.

All that said, if you're short on cash, you can obviously stick to free problems.

I feel like a real beginner, which is why I ordered volume 1. The truth is that if it's a worthwhile book I can afford it. If its easy it'll be a real confidence booster, as I'm still trying to work up the nerve to play online against real people. So far it's been just me and Smartgo.

I'll look into the other book that you mentioned. The Kiseido sale is on till the end of the month.

It's a good book, and you'll enjoy it. There is a varied mix of different problem in it, and not all of them will be easy or familiar to you. No doubt you'll get your money's worth out of it.

Here's an opinion, and it's really just that, in response to what you said about being anxious about playing:

I don't feel that doing problems will help you in overcoming the fear of playing real people. Actually, I believe that it may well have the opposite effect, because it widens the discrepancy between theoretical and practical knowledge, meaning you will almost inevitably feel that you "should" be "better" than you subjectively experience (missing snapbacks, not "seeing" ataris, etc.)

When I started out, I made (what I now believe to be) the mistake of focusing too much on studying and solving problems, rarely playing live opponents because I wanted to wait for the feeling of "being ready". It never came, and when I did play against real people, I found it difficult to put it all together. What's more, I knew they were playing "poorly", making moves that I knew to be "bad", but I couldn't punish it and I felt their way of playing dragged me down. As a result, I felt more at home with pro games or watching high dan games, but didn't actually become stronger in my ability to play my own games against other DDKs or low SDKs, and I only became more hesitant to even try.

Looking back, what I would do differently now is that I would somehow bring myself to spend 80% of my Go time as a beginner on playing vs. other beginners or more advanced players (e.g. by somehow realizing that your ability to play Go well, or the pace of your improvement, does not reflect on any other of your qualities and skills, and most certainly not on your value as a person!), and only the smaller portion on solving problems, studying openings, and other non-playing aspects. The playing part includes a brief analysis of your games, especially the ones that you have lost (yes, it's tempting to never ever look at these miserable demonstrations of your embarrassing defeat, but they have so much potential), just looking for a few things that you feel you or your opponent did well or not so well.

Playing vs. the computer is not necessarily bad (although SmartGo's engine is really not the best choice, even though everything else about SmartGo is fantastic, as it plays very "computer-y".), but AIs play better than other beginners insofar that they don't make extremely weird moves right from the start. The danger here is that you get the feeling (illusion, really) that you understand the fundamentals without really understanding them. The computer just never challenges you to test some of the very basic stuff simply because it makes "logical" (that you understand) moves, at least in the early game.

Naturally, this is all easier said than done, which is why I typed this rather than using the time to play a game.

Just play. Go on KGS, choose a low rank, hit automatch and you're good to go. There are plenty of players just as weak as you there.

When I started playing online, I had not solved a single problem. I had blitzed a few hundred games against igowin, but that only took two days or so.

Solving problems can be useful, especially once you're stronger. But getting the feel of a real game cannot be replaced.

_________________
Sanity is for the weak.

Heh, that's interesting. I also learned the basics by blitzing igowin a few hundred times at work while compiling code. It taught me some fighting if nothing else I think.

Thanks Mivo for the pep talk about actually playing Go. It was really timely because my problem books arrived yesterday. There were book and (old) software listings in the package and I immediately began considering what to buy next. After reading your post I instead spent some time off and on during the day playing 9x9 games on my iPad, which is something else I was avoiding. I also registered for IGS and installed Panda Tetsuki on my iPad so I'm getting closer to playing other people. I assume I need to be prepared to block out some time to focus on a game.

After I straighten out some PC problems I can also try KGS.

no need to worry about blocking out some time if you use DGS or OGS

I'm very familiar with buying Go books (and equipment) in the vain hope that it will make me a stronger player, as if by some magical force their mere sitting on my book shelf could somehow improve my skill! I think there was previous discussion here on the board where it was established that the quality and value of one's Go playing equipment is proportionally opposite to the player's Go skill.

It was all tongue-in-cheek, but I think this really is true often, though I believe it's simply a result of "older" people being more likely to put down a few hundred bucks when the enthusiasm strikes, and "older" people tending to improve at a slower pace. I do not believe that age is necessarily what causes it, but that it may be more closely related to the belief that age causes it; paired with some other factors, such as adult brains no longer being used to systematically learn vs. student brains that are constantly confronted with new material that needs to be processed and applied, but I have to reach dan first before I have any actual evidence for this theory!).

As for playing on the iPad: I'd recommend the brand-new "Champion Go HD" to you (the iPad version). Under the hoot there is the CrazyStone engine, which is one of the strongest and well-playing bots right now. But that's not why I recommend it. The reason is that you can win medals for all sorts of board-size, handicap and difficulty combinations. I feel this is a pretty nice, rewarding way of playing against the iPad without a huge amount of potential for frustration. It doesn't rate you, you don't get a rank that you can lose, and when you do beat a setting you haven't beaten before, you get one of the shiny medals that will sparkle at you whenever you look at your collection! There are 150 of them, and even if you falsely believe you're the worst possible Go player out there, you will definitely win some of them right from the start. Plus, it plays somewhat more human-like, though on 19x19 it favours moyo games (trying to get a huge center), though this isn't actually bad: teaches you how to get in there and stay alive.



I would go with KGS over IGS. There are more beginners and the atmosphere, in my subjective experience, is far better. KGS has a vivid community. One thing you need to mentally prepare yourself for is that at beginner levels you will be confronted with a wildly varying range of skill levels. In addition you'll encounter escapers and sandbaggers, both of which get more rare as you get closer to 10k and below.

An escaper is someone who leaves before the game is finished and scored, usually when they lose. Annoying, but offers a chance to develop a mindset that playing is more important than the result. A sandbagger is someone who is much stronger than they pretend to be and who gets a kick out destroying weaker players. Also annoying, mostly because of the damage it can do to the already low confidence in one's playing strength, but nevertheless a chance to develop another mindset: "Thanks for the free teaching game!".

But all of this aside: Go and play. If you're like me, you'll never feel ready. You'll find a dozen reasons what you need to do first before you'll try. Hey, you could wait until December 1st so you can track your progress more easily. It's all self-deception. Just play, remember that KGS lets you have more than one account (so you can start over any time -- not that you need to, but maybe knowing this takes some of the edge off), you will lose many games (even great players do!), but you will also win some. And when you're a dan player later on, will it really matter how your beginner games went?

Play and have fun. The anxiety gets better after a while -- the more often you do it. Just like any other form of anxiety, really! You only strengthen it if you give in to it.

Mivo - your comment about 'aging' brains reminds me of something we used to talk about a gazillion years ago when I was a math grad student. It had to do with when people became too old to be creative or make new discoveries in their field: mathematicians creative life was over at 30, physical scientists at 40, but artists and writers could just keep plugging away! Maybe that's why I left with a masters instead of a phd, and went to art school for a while before getting a 'real' job.

Anyway, the Graded Go Problems for Beginner is useful beginning with volume 1. The problem sets in the iPad and iPhone programs have little or no commentary - eg a problem stated as 'find the best move' with no hints and no explanation of why one sequence is better than another, which can be hard for me to figure out if no stones are captured or placed in Atari. The book providing the right answer and a commentary on an incorrect alternative is thought provoking. One early problem had an obvious solution if I was just trying to answer the specific question, but if I looked at it as a game then there were alternatives that would catch my eye if I was moving quickly.

I'll preempt the inevitable comment that "you don't have comments to guide you in a real game." I agree with you, and try to do a mix of problems with and without comments or "hints." Although I haven't taken the time to search, I'm pretty sure there was a discussion about this topic during which someone noted that Japanese and/or Chinese problem books nearly always have "hints." It is a pedagogical debate--as I mentioned, I find merit in both, so I do both sorts of problems.