Finally A Win In An Even Game

hailthorn011 · #1

For once, I actually commented on my game to the best of my ability. I believe I spent an hour on it. Hopefully you find them entertaining and informative as to why I did what I did. This game is mired with error despite the result, so I felt it could use some external reviews as well.

Edit: Move 69 comment should be on the move played in the game, not the variation. Lost track of my brain there.

daniel_the_smith · #2

My own comments prefixed with "dts:", enjoy...

BTW, your biggest problem seems to be playing unnecessary moves...

hailthorn011 · #3

daniel_the_smith wrote:

My own comments prefixed with "dts:", enjoy...

BTW, your biggest problem seems to be playing unnecessary moves...

I haven't looked at your commentary yet, but I saw your bottom statement. So, really? I thought my biggest mistake was missing critical moves. :lol:

Edit: I read your game comments. Your comments about the bottom right corner made me have a major "doh" moment.

daniel_the_smith · #4

hailthorn011 wrote:

... I thought my biggest mistake was missing critical moves. :lol:

It's easy to notice when you get those wrong. It's harder to feel how much harm you do to your game by playing unnecessary moves. I counted at least 3 moves of yours in that game that were basically passes. That's something like 15-30 points lost quietly, without fanfare. Those are the mistakes that are most important to fix, IMO, because they're among the hardest to even notice that you're making.

hailthorn011 · #5

daniel_the_smith wrote:

hailthorn011 wrote:

... I thought my biggest mistake was missing critical moves. :lol:

It's easy to notice when you get those wrong. It's harder to feel how much harm you do to your game by playing unnecessary moves. I counted at least 3 moves of yours in that game that were basically passes. That's something like 15-30 points lost quietly, without fanfare. Those are the mistakes that are most important to fix, IMO, because they're among the hardest to even notice that you're making.

Good point. I'll have to watch out for that in my next game.

Loons · #6

I added a couple comments.

shapenaji · #7

I can only imagine what it feels like for stronger players to look at my games, looking at this I had some real cringe-worthy moments... "AH! NO! He'll capture! Wait, he won't? You guys are ignoring that? GAH! shape, SHAPE! Atari darnit!"

One of the things to recognize is that from 20k down to about 5k, there's almost always a move on the board which will completely destroy the other side, you just have to find it.

That being said, my only real comment about the game is the upper left corner, which others probably covered in their reviews,

A) you should not be alive there
B) it's not double ko
C) don't let him cut you off in sente in the first place. blocking the corner is not as important as you think.

cyclops · #8

Wow, you guys played 330+ moves in 25- minutes. 5- seconds per move. Wow! :shock:

Joaz Banbeck · #9

Although DTS is correct about the better line of play in the 90's, there is no ko when white plays 100 at S4 in the variation.

Joaz Banbeck · **#10**

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Stone #1: "I want to play an influence game."

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Stone #2: "I want play a territorial game."

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Stone #3: "I too want to play an influence game."

Stones #1 & #3: "Together we will rule the board."

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Stone #4: "I too wish to be a timid territorial stone."

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Stone #5: "Hi! This looks so cozy! Can I join you guys?"

Stones #1 & #3: "What???"

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That's what I see when I look at the first 5 moves. If you
want to make shodan, it should look like the following. -JB

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Stone #5: "I shall make first contact with the enemy! Banzai!!!"

Stones #1 & #3 & #5: "Together we shall crush the enemy!"

Stone #2: "Nooooooooooo!"

hyperpape · **#11**

Joaz, that seems dogmatic. The first four moves are very rare, but you see both approaches played by Black in professional games. If you shift the lower right hand corner to the more normal 3-4 point (facing the lower left corner, not the upper right), you get a lot more games, and a large number of professional games where Black plays the low approach. The high is more common, and probably easier to understand, but on that basis, I'd hesitate to call the low approach wrong.

EdLee · **#12**

What dts, shapenaji, and hyperpape said.

Fact check:
Opening (L): Low approach -- 99 out of 50,744 pro game database (1933 - 2009+).

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Opening (H): High approach -- 193 out of 50,744 pro game database (1936 - 2009+).

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However, on closer look:

Code:

                    (L) Low approach            (H) High approach               
In 2009:              8 pro games                 1 pro game                      
From 2000 - 2009:    25 pro games                12 pro games

But for hailthorn011 and kyu levels, what really matters,
what mostly decides the games, are moves like :b21:

which have absolutely nothing to do with any opening theory.
It's all basic shapes, basic tesuji, basic L&D, basic tactics, basic contact fight, etc.

shapenaji · **#13**

What EdLee said,

Strictly speaking, opening theory, or what pros currently value as "best", is rarely relevant up until the mid-dan ranks.

While I agree with Joaz's logic in playing the high approach, I think it's perfectly reasonable to come up with a narrative that fits the stones he played there. The only place where the narrative breaks is when he lets himself get cut or something dies.

For example, 1 and 3 say "I want to see how you react"

White responds with low-territorial moves, saying "Well, if you're going to play flexibly, I'm going to play far away, build some solid territory, and then invade you like a madman."

Black responds with 5 saying "Oh, please come over here whenever you like, but if you want territory down here, you're going to have to let me press you low, otherwise, we'll split the corner, you'll have no territory advantage, and so your invasions up top will just look silly"

You can create a narrative for just about any series of moves that still have potential.

Bill Spight · **#14**

From Ed Lee's research, it is plain that either approach is playable.

How about this?

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Why wait?

----

But later this is very important.

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and

are the way to play. If :w12:

does not capture, but allows Black to connect, then White will have a very bad shape, like trying to cut a bamboo joint, and making an empty triangle besides.

After :b15:

Black commands the whole board. Black may not have a winning advantage at the dan level, but he has a definite advantage.

tapir · **#15**

Well, yes either approach is playable, but Ed needed to change the lower right corner to find any matches at all. From which we may conclude that playing two conveniently approachable 3-4 stones isn't good (because it doesn't happen), regardless of the approach Black chooses. W4 is the bigger problem. Not because it is a 3-4 stone, but because it is this particular 3-4 point not the adjacent one, imho. Also, Joaz added longer "lines" to the 4-4 stones making them look more powerful than 3-4 ("timid territorial") stones in general. It still was a wonderful story

On the other hand, this is totally irrelevant to the outcome of the game in question.

hyperpape · **#16**

Tapir, I found both approaches using the original four moves. I assume Ed found the same, but used the more common formation to get bigger, more significant numbers.

daniel_the_smith · **#17**

The high approach definitely feels good to me in this position, but I think Joaz is explaining too much with it. I would be shocked to find that at pro level, the high approach was worth 5 points more than the low approach (2 would be believable). In games where groups needlessly die, this is NOT the low-hanging fruit.

EdLee · **#18**

hyperpape, interesting suggestions.

Here are the results:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Code:

                   (a) Low approach            (b) High approach
1952 - 2002:         6 pro games                14 pro games
Since 1960:          4 pro games                 4 pro games
Since 1990:          2 pro games                 2 pro games

Finally A Win In An Even Game

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