OGS game I have questions about

Chew Terr · #1

Here's another one I'd appreciate comments on, please. I know I won, but there were a few decisions I wasn't sure about.

Is P14 okay? It felt strange, but read out as okay for me at the time.
How about the bottom left? This is my biggest question mark. I know it didn't feel like proper joseki, but I'm not sure what would have been best here. Also, C10 was me trying to follow advice Yoyoma gave me when I was like, 9k (When running, bring a friend).
40&42: Is this reasonable? I was debating giving white the cutting stones and my corner in exchange for the big framework, but it felt doable, and safer than trying to run.
68: Is this my best choice here? I considered several other options, but ended up on this because P6 felt like it'd let him live on the side too easily. Or had I already made a mistake locally prior to this point?

Thanks, as always! Also, people lately have been too apologetic when reviewing ("sorry, I'm only x strength, but here are my thoughts..."), so I'll make it clear. I'd love any thoughts/ideas, regardless of your strength.

jts · #2

Well, here are some thoughts.

I was startled by :b40:

. Is there no way to make a fight of it?

At first I thought I didn't like the direction of :b44:

, because black's position looks a bit cramped, and having an extension all the way out to L16 seems a bit nicer. But L16 is undercut, so its difficult to say. This made me think that blocking the corner for :b42:

would be very big, if B can't be completely satisfied with either direction.

karaklis · #3

Sorry, I'm actually weaker than you, but here are my thoughts...

From move 6: Developing the c3 stone seems more urgent to me since it does not have a base yet. Attacking this stone on c4 or d5 seems profitable for white. I am slightly amazed that both players didn't play in that area until move 17, and w 17 seems not to be a severe enough attack for making profit there. Black gets away too easily. Maybe pincering the e3 stone is another option, the space to the white support stonen is quite far away.

Move 10: This move seems odd to me, I'd prefer o16 here

Move 61: Shouldn't white here play more lightly at n11? I remember that this is a sabaki shape, but I am not sure whether this is applicable here.

Move 66: I see that your intention is not to allow white to get a large moyo, but allowing white to hane at r6 seems too good for white. What if black had haned at p7 first, and depending on white's answer play o10 or p9 or o6.

Maybe a stronger player has better ideas.

illluck · #4

A few quick comments without deep analysis (writing in class):

C3 seems a bit rushed - it's like you played sansan, opponent approached, and you played tenuki. Possibly ok, but seems to invite complexity and gives opponent outside early in game. I would consider C5 instead.

After move 16 it feels like a better result for white - Q14 has a lot of aji left. However, black's outside does look pretty nice, so perhaps it's OK.

Move 18 at C5 seems fine, but D5 is asking for hane at head of two - I think E4 instead?

C9 seems a bit small, so it is likely that C8 was not the right timing?

Sacrificing G6 seems like very nice idea.

White didn't get a good result around Q14 - seems like he played a bit heavily in the area.

O5 is a bit risky because it leaves white the slide into corner.

Chew Terr · #5

Thank you for your responses!

JTS: I strongly considered fighting for it, and it was my first instinct. However, I've been trying to solidify my often-too-aggressive style, so here is what I was thinking: If I save the cutting stones, I have a weak, fairly heavy group, as does my opponent. On one side he has a bulletproof group, and on the other I have no base. While I could almost certainly live with both the cutting stones and the side group, I saw no clear way to profit. Because my cutting stones weren't bigger than they were, I viewed it as a medium-size sacrifice for a fairly large framework; a fairly even trade that preserved my handicap. I could CERTAINLY be wrong about the size of the trade though, as my estimation is far from accurate.
And yeah, I wonder about blocking the corner with 42. It looks pretty big, though I was afraid of white peeping and using the aji on the left to reduce me heavily. Not sure how much he could reduce versus profit gained, though... Worth considering in the future, though.

Karaklis: I had a hard time deciding the urgency of helping C3. I know that 3-3 points in the opening are often all about quick stability, so I was trying to estimate the value of playing elsewhere versus getting more sealed in.
10: I figured I should try to eat the stone that was easier to eat (the top one), or force him to spend enough effort living that I would get the other. Can you clarify why you prefer the other direction?
61: The lighter shape is interesting, but I think white played here because it made the descent to R12 into huge sente for him, and left him cutting aji above. Not sure though, as I'm not him.
66: Here, I was debating between the option I picked and the one you considered. I ended up picking this because it basically killed the stones above, whereas if I play as you suggest, he might take P10 to stabilize them into influence. I'm not sure I was better off, but it made sense at the time.

Illuck:
Yeah, I wondered about C3. I've played him several times at 3 stones and he always opens at the 5-3 or 5-4, so I was just trying to investigate different options.
Yeah, maybe E4 was better than D5. Hmmm...
Somehow I missed that B8 ended in gote.
Regarding O5: Yeah, I was unsure about this in-game. I was hoping to get some sort of miai option (connecting or eyes), but I was having a hard time telling how hard I could pressure black's group on the right to keep my own alive. I wanted to defend the corner just before he would take it, but was having a hard time telling. So you think I should've just stabilized and settled sealed in?

Joaz Banbeck · #6

About P14: The theory for handling a double approach to your hoshi stone is that it is a high stone, and must get out to the center. With two approaches against it, a third enemy stone would seal it in, so not only must it get out, it must get out immediately.
Furthermore, as a matter of common technique to do this, you frequently lean on one stone, forcing it to defend itself, then, having gained strength, you begin a stronger attack on the other. The choice of which stone to attack first and which to attack second is compliated by several factors, the two most imortant being:
1) Do I have a pincer stone on the side to prevent it from making a comfortable extension?
2) Can it assist in a 3-3 invasion ( or sometimes, a 3-4 )?
The theory here is that you lean on the second best target first, knowing that it can defend itself, then go after the real target.

Now, to practical application:
Both side have a pincer, and both have a stone beyond that. So it is about a tie. On the second condition, connecting to a 3-3 invasion, his upper side approach can do so far more easily. So, if it can defend itself more easily, it seems best to make it the initial target. Which leads to something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c 'A' or 'b' is joseki, but because of the marked stone, 'c' is big too. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 4 . b . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , B . 2 1 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . c 3 . 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c If white goes for the corner, black looks great $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 4 . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , B . 2 1 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 3 . 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Or:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c This is the joseki ( without L16 present ) when W pushes out with 6, \nbut 9 could be at 'a' and now it looks pretty good for black because of L16. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 4 . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , B . 2 1 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a 6 3 . 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Chew Terr · #7

Thanks, Joaz. That makes a lot of sense, and supports what Karaklis says with shiny diagrams. Are there times when you would recommend the other sort of attachment? I'm sure there are times it's correct (in go, there's always some case where anything is), but I swear I've seen it somewhere. Maybe just if white already has more support on the right so the stone's less likely to need help?

daniel_the_smith · #8

26: This is a really infrequent corner position, but my website does not agree with white's last move-- there must be a better "punishment" than this. I think you might be able to play D7, and if you can't, then probably you shouldn't have played E7.
31: This feels very painful for black.
36: Loses sente. I prefer to help your weak stones.
40: Oh, you're giving them up. Hm, that seems like a large loss, but it might be better than trying to save them.
64: Hm, it looks like the 3rd line move would have been much better?
88: M10?
91: I'd have to read carefully to convince myself that N11 doesn't work.

Joaz Banbeck · #9

I also agree with Karaklis' observation that 6 is the wrong direction, and that you must do something about C3. But I have no clear idea how. ( I'd like to hear some 4D or 5D's opinion on the subject. )

Chew Terr · **#10**

DTS: Thank you for your time. First,
I agree. E7 looks like a mistake in the humbling light of retrospect.
31: I agree, of course. Was my error in leaving C3, as Joaz and Karaklis speculate, was it the cost of my E7 mistake, or was it just compensation for tenuki-ing, and okay?
36: Yeah, realized my mistake afterward.
64: Would you mind explaining a bit? Just because it destabilized my bottom and loses me those potential points? I figured I would swap side points for center points, and give him a weaker group. However, I am by no means confident, that's just why I made the decision in-game.
88: M10 doesn't seem to work, or didn't at the time? I read that if I M8, he would throw in at N8, and then I read squeezy business into death or a ladder? Or was I jumping at shadows?
91: I figured I'd have to let him have some stability, and atari my way out. Or am I missing something bigger?

Edit: Oh, and I know I'm kind of responding to suggestions by explaining what I was thinking. I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong, just trying to talk my way through considering your suggestions versus what I was doing.

daniel_the_smith · **#11**

Chew Terr wrote:

31: I agree, of course. Was my error in leaving C3, as Joaz and Karaklis speculate, was it the cost of my E7 mistake, or was it just compensation for tenuki-ing, and okay?

I think the E7-C10 combo are to blame, but who knows?

Chew Terr wrote:

64: Would you mind explaining a bit? Just because it destabilized my bottom and loses me those potential points? I figured I would swap side points for center points, and give him a weaker group. However, I am by no means confident, that's just why I made the decision in-game.

I'm not sure, my System 1 is marking R9 as obviously superior. I think it's because the cash on the side is better than the floating white stones-- they don't seem to be building white's moyo, there'll still be two large doors. Also, the way you played, you had to make eyes for your corner.

Chew Terr wrote:

88: M10 doesn't seem to work, or didn't at the time? I read that if I M8, he would throw in at N8, and then I read squeezy business into death or a ladder? Or was I jumping at shadows?

Ah, no, you're correct, there's a ladder and I'm dumb.

Chew Terr wrote:

91: I figured I'd have to let him have some stability, and atari my way out. Or am I missing something bigger?

I was thinking if white played N11 for 91, you might lose some stones. But on a closer investigation, it looks like you'd be just fine.

Chew Terr wrote:

Edit: Oh, and I know I'm kind of responding to suggestions by explaining what I was thinking. I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong, just trying to talk my way through considering your suggestions versus what I was doing.

I'm frequently wrong and always happy when people can prove it! ;-)

Joaz Banbeck · **#12**

A continuation of the theoretical musings above..

I'm wondering if black really wants to attach at all. Consider the double-approached hoshi stone as a pincered stone whose local territory has been 'wrapped' into a corner. In other words, this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Folded into a corner $$-------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . O . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . O . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

is topologically the same as this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Laid along a side $$----------------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . $$ . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

In a situation like the above diagram, if the surrounding stones are enemies, like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$----------------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ . . . O . . O . . . . . . O . . . . $$ . . . . . . 1 . X . O . . . . . . . $$ . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

...an attachment is reasonable.

But if the surrounding stones are friendly, attaching just helps strengthen them when they need it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$----------------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ . . . X . . O . . . . . . X . . . . $$ . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . $$ . . . X . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . . $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

...and it is usually best to run out without touching, creating a double attack.

Now if we take that logic, and wrap it back in a corner, it suggests that the best move may be the no-contact extension into the center. ( In this particular game, P15 )

jts · **#13**

But if Black decides to get into the center, he is offering the corner to White. When W takes the corner, B can decide what side to block on. One of W's stones is going to have a base in the corner, and the other isn't. Now doesn't B's non-committal stone look a little silly? B probably wishes it were attached to the strong group, further from the weak stone.

Bill Spight · **#14**

A few comments:

Joaz Banbeck · **#15**

About P14

Bill Spight wrote:

This is joseki

According to daily joseki, considering just the corner, pros like attaching to the other stone better than 4 to 1. If the 2-space high pincer is included, dailyjoseki says that they favor attaching to the other stone approximately 13 to 1. I couldn't find a joseki reference with both black pincers.

OGS game I have questions about

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