From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_aversion :

"Some studies suggest that losses are twice as powerful, psychologically, as gains."

So if you lose and win equally often, such as with a stable rank on KGS, the experience will be mostly awful. Why do people keep playing this depressing game? I have heard suggestions that you should just play for the enjoyment of playing and not worry about winning or losing. Can anyone honestly say they have achieved that?

Another common factor, apart from the pleasure of winning and the misery of losing, is the enjoyment of learning and getting better. This leads to a common problem that people only play while they're improving, and stop playing once they achieve a stable rank. And yet lots of people still play with a stable rank, without any serious hope for progress - for example, most adult high dans on KGS. How do they manage to stay interested? Many of them play tons of fast games and never review - they're clearly not even interested in improvement, they are playing purely for the enjoyment of the game. I'm so jealous of them.

I feel the opposite usually I think, but I can't really say I play just for enjoyment

I always have a stable rank.

More seriously, I think a lot of this "losing is horrible; winning is just okay" attitude is due to a lack of respect for your opponent. It's understandable, most of the people we play on the internet we never meet and will never play again, but once we notice we can take steps to make sure we respect our opponents. The important thing to remember is this: if your rank is even close to accurate you will have a roughly 50% chance of winning any given game. Even if you are improving you may only have a 55 - 60% chance of winning equally ranked games. Once we understand what our actual win rate should be losses should be easier to accept and wins worth more.

Some people have the attitude that "When I lose it's because I made a big mistake, when I win it's because my opponent made a mistake." I feel this attitude also holds people back, and it's inconsistant because it ignores both the mistakes we all make constantly (except for when they lose us the game) and also the occasional flashes of brilliance that people can have. Perhaps this also links into your question - one of the reasons I play is for the opportunities to make a move that surprises myself. Sometimes my opponent wins because of such a brilliant move, and although the loss doesn't usually make me happy I can at least give them respect for doing so well.

Hmm. This is an interesting comment. I don't think I often "respect" others that much. I think they are better than me sometimes, I guess (both in go and in real life), but this seems different than respect.

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be immersed

This mentality had me down for a long time. You need to find a way to connect Go with your life positively. If you have a higher purpose that playing/studying Go pushes you toward, you can never get bored with it.

For some people, that higher purpose is remaining sharp. Some people use Go as a way to feel alive if their surroundings are not what they want them to be and can't be changed. Personally I feel that Go is one of my gateways to the world - which is why I keep at it.

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Sounds intriguing. Could you elaborate?

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be immersed

I would say its a mixture of everything you said, Palapiku. My reasons for playing are multi-faceted. Foremost, perhaps, is just having a mental diversion (I play mainly on DGS). I used to do crosswords religiously, where there is obviously not as much competition involved, but gave them up when I started playing go more. I think the second reason I play is the learning aspect, I like to learn as much as possible about things when I do them, and go is no different. I wonder how I'd feel if I plateaud for a long time. That might be why I quit doing crosswords, actually.
Then there is the interest in playing different folks. I play with my step dad, who lives very far away, and its a great way to connect. I also enjoy that I taught him the game a couple years ago and have trained him up to being about a 17 kyu.
As far as winning and losing... I am moderately competetive. I certainly enjoy winning, but the feeling is fleeting. The sting of a loss, however, will stay with me. Take, for instance, the game below, where I am white. I was pretty excited that my opponent made the mistake of playing 190. But that was far overshadowed when, playing lazily as I was watching a movie, I allowed him to play 224. Made me sick.
It does remind me of reading about basketball. When Michael Jordan gave his Hall of Fame induction speech, he used it as a platform to condemn at great length every single person who had ever doubted him. While it was generally regarded as the worst induction speech ever, it was an illustrative moment where people realized that what motivated Jordan was not the pursuit of perfection or the enjoyment of the game, but a deep seated hatred of failure (along with the need for the acceptance of others) and that was what made him the greatest basketball player ever. Kobe Bryant hsa been accused of the same, as indicated in a column recently about his performances against the Phoenix Suns. Interesting stuff.

I think we're overlooking a facet of go that is not possessed by, for example, craps.

The joy of finding an elegant but deep only move, or in a moment of dire pressure busting a sick tesuji : Those wonderful moments where the internet boardgame gives you an adrenaline rush and goosebumps.

Even/also the horrifying experience as your eyes widen and the bottom drops out of your stomach as your opponent shows you that you weren't quite as safe as you thought, followed by the frenzied search for possibilities and aji.

This is what comprises the experience of go; and why tsumego can also be fun and exciting. Look at this thread of rudimentary "tricky" tsumego, you've got to admit you felt at least a little bit awesome when you remembered found some of the answers.


Lack of interest in the game versus where the win markers for today stand in your games list is what we call rank obsession, right?

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I posted a poll about this a while back here.

I've come to think that much of the pain associated with losing has simply to do with worrying about your rank. For a period of time, I was getting very upset about losing, and it had to do with the fact that I was on the verge of busting through to a higher rank, but wasn't good enough to actually do it. At the moment, I feel that I've improved and although I haven't gotten to the next rank solidly, I'm feeling confident that it will happen sooner or later, so the losses don't bother me so much. It also has to do with the fact that atm, I have the feeling that I am playing good games where interesting and exciting things tend to happen, so when my opponent beats me, hats off to him.

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Patience, grasshopper.

The one problem is that it's not clear loss aversion in the psychologist's sense applies to winning or losing in a game. As I understand it, it's more about losses or gains from a starting result. I.e, I have $10 and I can either gain $5 or lose $5.

One possible consequence might be that a bad loss is more salient than a good win.

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Occupy Babel!

This is an interesting approach. I wonder, though, if this isn't also dangerous.

If someone links mental agility and sharpness to the game, that is: considers these to be goals and desirable benefits, and then they plateau, progress stops or losing streaks set in, won't that hit their self-esteem like a torpedo? The whole "too dumb for this game" downward spiral when the game suddenly seems to determine one's self-worth.

Or, if they feel the board is their alternate world where they have all the potential, possibilities and the control they may perceive as lacking in their real life, and then get repeatedly slaughtered, won't that amplify the feeling of being pushed and shoved around by those who are "better"?

I'm not disagreeing that Go, and all that surrounds it, has the potential to be a "window to the world", and I might very well completely misunderstand what you are getting at. I'm just unsure if a competitive game, with one definite loser at the end, and a number that grades how "good" you are in comparison to everyone else, can ever be a purely positive source of uplifting feelings (particularly for someone who may not be entirely happy with their life).

When I first picked up go back in 2006 (the very first time I discovered the game because of the Hikaru no Go manga), I wanted to play just like Sai. I was sixteen at the time, so yeah. Ha ha. Anyway, I only played on Yahoo and because of the terrible Yahoo ranking system, I was often pitted against players who were far stronger than I was. And I quit because I didn't understand why I was losing so much.

I played off and on with my friend Brian until 2010. Funny story is we didn't actually have a Go board so we used a Scrabble board with those brightly colored fish bowl stones. Weird, but it worked. The good part is, I won 60% of the time against him, so that was nice. I have two Go boards now, of course.

But then back in 2010, I discovered KGS. And I started playing there. I ended up playing an SDK (and getting slaughtered) but he actually offered a review, so I was happy. And I ended up starting as a 21k. I kept playing. In my first month I finished with an 11-15 record. It wasn't amazing, but that was enough to keep me going. And I ranked up enough to keep me interested.

Fast forward to now, and I've gained 2 ranks since September. I can mostly attest this to not playing as often as I would like, but I noticed the more you rank up the slower progress becomes. However by now, that doesn't bother me like it would have had it been this difficult when I was a 21k. I reached my first goal of becoming SDK, so I'm happy with that. Even though I tend to lose more than I win, the thought that I'm constantly learning from these games keeps me coming back.

And actually, I was just thinking of this the other day. Many people want to win, but they don't want to lose. And a lot of people want to get higher ranks without much effort. This ideology was good enough to get me to 8k. However more recently, I've wondered why people don't enjoy it for what it is- an adventure or journey. Maybe the reverse should be you get mad about a win, but happy because a loss. And why? You tend to learn more from a loss. That's not saying play to lose. But I suppose this goes back to the respect issue some people have already brought up. If you play your best and still lose, can you appreciate the fact that your opponent played better?

Sorry for the long post, but this is something I've been thinking about quite frequently since the New Years.

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Slava Ukraini!

From my point of view, Go is quite a good mirror of psychological state of the player. For example I have a playing friend who is very calm, and his play is also really calm, he avoid fights and reached something like 7kyu on KGS that way. As he is calm and laid back, he isn't to worried about winning/losing/rank. Of course being so "chilled out" is sometimes not so good, because You won't have such an urge to improve...

Another example for me is myself:P As a person with a bit low self-esteem (or more probably just ego problems) I am often angry when someone criticize me (as I view it as an attack on me). This is resembled in my go - when someone attacks me I start a frenzied assault at his positions. I don't have to say that as Go is a game of fighting and sharing the board, this results often in my defeat. I am working on myself, so my play is bit better than at the beginning, but still the sting of defeat is often quite strong. Especially if I think that I lost because I made a stupid mistake. In fact I don't have big problems with losing when I put out a fight but eventually was outmatched.

So to sum my chaotic post - I do think that ones personality/problems affect the way the person plays Go, and while it is not so good for those people because it will hinder their development, it is also a chance to work with those problems a bit, and makes Go such an interesting and diverse game.

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Formerly Gorim

Hmm, I try to relate but honestly I look at things completely different than you.

I enjoy the game when I feel like I played well. The way one plays should be the sum of all the things he learned so far about the game, so I feel horrible when I know that the normal me would have beat the me in the game. Don't get me wrong, getting the win is of course the goal of the game, but I find myself often feeling bad about games I won where my opponent played very bad, as well as feeling very good about a gameI lost that I felt was even and well played by both me and my opponent, usually ending in a very small margin. I'd take losing a good game by .5 any day over killing some way-too-deep invasion and winning the game.

That being said, I find it quite hard to keep this state of mind for long. I try to hold myself to one or two games at most per day, if at all, so that I will try my best and not just "play another game". I try to not play blitz at all. I try to play only after nights in which I slept well. Usually, if I end up breaking one of the above, I play bad and get bit by bit more angry and disappointed about the game. Every time that happens, after some losing streaks I stop playing for a few days, and return to playing the way I preffer. Like "good" periods and "bad" ones.

This also helps me to keep a very possitive look on the game. Too many times, during bad periods, I remember being very angry about getting invaded in a place that should not live and then messing things up and losing. During good periods, if that happenss, I honestly just think "Oh well, I got his back to the wall so he had to do this unreasonable invasion. Now I know what to improve in my game."

I think what I'm trying to say is that a kifu is created by two players, and I try to give my best in contributing my part. If I felt I did well, I'm happy... if not, then not

I don't find losing so bad; what really annoys me is when I play awfully, particularly if I was leading the game. If I play well and my opponent plays even better and wins that's fine I don't get any bad feeling. I get annoyed with myself if I play badly, even if I win, but of course it's much worse if I lose. I do find that losing to a weaker player is worse than losing to a stronger player (yes, I know people will says things like "well if you lose to him he's not weaker" but I disagree) as you feel "I should have beaten him" vs "Oh well, nevermind, that's expected".

I think it is common to remember your bitter losses, for example for me:
1) One game I was playing someone ranked a little lower than me, but I had only lost to him before. After a poor start I knuckled down and clawed my way back into the game. Over 3 hours later I was 40ish ahead and had killed a ponnuki in the centre . Then I forgot to press my clock and lost on time . That really hurt (this is actually the game on viewtopic.php?p=88772#p88772, but as a positive I learnt and remembered about the d3 block from it!)
2) At EGC 2010 I was 25ish ahead and we were filling dame. I filled one and then my opponent played a move inside my territory with some dead stones and shouted "Woo hoo!" and punched the air. It looked like by filling a dame I had given myself a shortage of liberties so loads of my stones died and in the heat of the moment I was so upset I left the playing room in a huff and let my clock run out to resign. But later when I replayed the game I discovered I had 1 extra liberty and was actually ok.

But Loons is also right about the joy of finding a brilliant move, particularly if it turns a game around (maybe my opponent then feels awful, but there is a difference between making an awful move, and failing to see your opponent's brilliant one). For example it was an awesome feeling when I solved the problem I wrote about in viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5099 and kept on discovering beautiful double snapbacks and damezumaris that meant I won the game instead of losing by 0.5. I still remember my game when I beat Matthew Macfadyen 6d the UK champion. The first Go book I read was by him and back then he was this mythical God of Go. To beat him was such a great feeling, I was dancing inside for days afterwards . I would much rather get those 2 loses I mentioned above and this win, than to not have played this wonderful game!

I agree with hyperpape that these losses seem to be more about losses or gains such as betting $100 and losing it as opposed to doubling it. In terms of Go this may be analogous to losing a rank or gaining a rank. If you don't play many rated games on a some servers such as KGS you will have a rank that is easily prone to moving up or down with one ranked game. I know for myself it can feel pretty bad if I move back one rank after losing a game. I think all of us have an idea of what rank we are and if you move back on a server from what rank you were at and where you think you should be it can feel very discouraging. Of course, it can be a great reality check as well if we are having delusions of grandeur




I agree. I think rank is a double-edged sword where it can bring us down from worrying about it too much and getting upset by not moving forward. However, imagine if you didn't have it and were wondering how you were progressing. Our perspectives can be easily skewed by a few wins or losses. Imagine winning 5 games in a row then losing 2 then winning 3 and then losing 3. After losing the last 3 you may have the sense that you are going backwards and become very discouraged about your playing. However, looking at a rank graph would show you that over the last 13 games you were progressing as you won 8 out of your last 13 games. I have looked at some players rank graph on KGS and over year you can see the steady progression upwards between say 5 kyu to 4 kyu. This must be at least somewhat encouraging as you see slow but steady progress.




I am also intrigued.




I resonate with this statement. What is happening in the rest of my life really affects the psychological impact of a loss. If you are in good state of mind you can take the loss in stride and see it as a learning opportunity but if you are frustrated or feeling down about other areas of your life it is easy to become very upset or discouraged by a lost game. You can project its meaning to be that you are stupid, lazy, or just plain no good at anything. This why I don't put too much faith in the studies mentioned a the start of this post because they cannot account for all the variables that make a loss psychologically twice as powerful (whatever that means) in one case and not in another. However, I do believe losses are great learning experiences for how you deal with disappointment, set backs, and so on and are valuable to our character development.

I hear this attitude from time to time - I think topazg claimed to have it, for example.

To me, it sounds like a great attitude to have - idealistic, even... But I simply cannot get myself to think this way - about anything.

I can't get past the idea that, in go, the objective is to win. Everything else is not the objective, but possibly a means to get to the winning state.

In game theoretical terms, go is a zero-sum game: you win or lose. Point differential doesnot matter. Tesuji does not matter. Creativity does not matter. A win matters.

Of course, some may say that there is more to the game than its game theoretical definition. But this seems inefficient to me. I cannot seem to see the other perspective. It sounds nice to like a game for reasons other than its objective, but I cannot seem to relate to this.

It reminds me of the game "Candy Land". You can try to make a game fun by taking away the focus on winning, but I cannot seem to amuse myself with such ventures.

If I am playing a game without thinking of winning, I have to ask myself, "why am I spending my time with this?"

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be immersed

The objective of the game is to win. Does that mean you can't enjoy the game itself when you don't win? I think you can separate the goal of the game with the time you spend playing the game. If half the time you're not doing something you enjoy, that can be pretty sad. It's like going to work.

It sounds silly, but I can't say I really know what "enjoy" is.

A dictionary search says it means, "Have fun, get pleasure from". When I look up "pleasure", I get, "the feeling of happiness, enjoyment, or satisfaction obtained from experience".

Looking up "enjoyment" brings me to where I started. I can say that, "No, I am not satisfied when I lose."

That leaves me withthe definition of happiness. When I look that up, I get "emotions experienced when in a state of well-being."

I am inclined to say that I am not in a state of well-being when I am losing a game...

So I am not positive I really know what genuine "enjoyment" means, but upon initial investigation, there is some possibility that I do not enjoy the game when I am not winning.

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be immersed

Kirby:

You seem very focused on the destination. Are you not able to enjoy the journey?




I don't think I would play this game if that didn't matter. Part of enjoying the journey is taking joy in the small pleasures along the way. I definitely want to win when I play and struggle to achieve the win but I have taken great satisfaction from close games where I either played some moves I was happy with or killed a group of the opponents that was hard to kill. I seem to remember reading a recent post of yours where you claimed that you loved killing a large group even though it led to you losing. I can relate to that. Sometimes trying to figure out how to kill an opponent's group can become a small challenge in itself that you derive satisfaction from and pleasure in if you accomplish it even if you don't win.




Not a good analogy. Candy Land is a game of pure luck. What satisfaction could be gained from winning this game or the plays along the way? I derive way more satisfaction from being able to solve a tsumego then I would from winning a game of Candy Land.




I agree with you here but perhaps this quote by Reiner Knizia may help ""The goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important - not the winning."