I obvious read worse than both 1986 and Marcus. Whenever they state something with certainty I believe that they are right XDDDDDDDDDD

I think 1986 is right now again...

More reading, more complications.

Here's what I expect:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm70 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O X O . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O X X . . O . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . . O O X . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X O . . X . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O O X X 1 X X O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O X . O . . X . O X X O . . |
$$ | . X X . 5 2 3 O . . . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . 7 6 8 4 . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is the critical line. If 1986 deviates from this, I think I can crush the corner. After this sequence, the fighting gets complicated again. I think from here I can make this one eye versus one eye, or perhaps 1986 will allow us both to live.

I don't think he is. Why would white ever want to play 75 as in 1986's last diagram?

in 1986's diagram is definitely not good for this situation - he's missing the obvious move that Marcus has shown.

Even with the stone there ( at e1) following Marcus' diagram, it's easy to miss the fact that D2 is not a true eye, even with a black play at E3 (these false eyes are the kind I miss all the time when I'm trying to read things out in my head).

To be honest I didn't even read 1986's second diagram because his first diagram was what I misread. I don't think Marcus can play like his variation because this seems dangerous for white (though, my demonstrated ddk reading so far does not inspire confidence :p).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm70 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O X O . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O X X . . O . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . . O O X . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X O . . X . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O O X X 1 X X O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O X . O . . X . O X X O . . |
$$ | . X X . 5 2 3 O . 9 . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . 7 6 8 4 . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I talked about this move in my previous post, ill add more thoughts later i have a little business to attend to my son got cereal everywhere lol

We're getting to the point where I can actually go into more detail about the lines. I don't expect a deviation from my previous post (1986 is being very careful, so I assume he is reading as thoroughly as he can), so I'll put that here, too:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm70 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O X O . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O X X . . O . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . . O O X . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X O . . X . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O O X X 1 X X O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X a O X . O . . X . O X X O . . |
$$ | . X X . 5 2 3 O . b . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . 7 6 8 4 . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The two main follow-ups I've considered from Black are E3 (a) and K2 (b). In my reading, I determined that E3 is the easier line, and I would consider it a mistake for Black to play there. I have enough liberties that his single eye that he could make in the corner won't save him from death. He needs to keep that liberty free to make the fight more complicated.

K2 (b) is a lot more complicated, in my opinion, but I've done some extensive reading. While I'm pretty sure I have a response for anything after Black plays K2, I've been known to miss variations before (entire trees worth, even ).

I've considered other possible attacks, too, but E3 (a) strikes me as the most likely mistake my opponent could make, and K2 (b) seems like the most difficult move for White to answer.

For (a):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm78 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O X O . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O X X . . O . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . . O O X . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X O . . X . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O O X X X X X O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X 1 O X x O . . X . O X X O . . |
$$ | z X X C X O X O . b . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . y . X O O O 2 . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I said this was easier, but it's by no means game over if Black chooses this line. What happens with :b78 :and is that Black can no longer play at H3 (x) due to a shortage of liberties caused by the D2 false eye (marked with a circle). If Black wants to REALLY fight it out, we could play a ko Black would play at B1 (y). I could then go for the ko by playing A2 (z), or try to eek out mutual life (and where's the fun in that?). H3 (x) becomes a MASSIVE local ko threat for me, so I have the luxury of being able to respond to a single ko threat (for instance, if he threatens the cut at S4, which is also big ... wouldn't want to give up the other corner if I don't have to; come to think of it, I should be wary of the upper left, too ...).

So, in typing this up, perhaps E3 is NOT a mistake, if Black plans to get adequate compensation from the ko. Talk about new lines being read out mid sentence. We'll cross that bridge when we get there.

I was going to say that K2 (b) is still something Black might try here, but it gives up the opportunity for the ko, and White will win the liberty race, so that's not an option after at E3.

So, what about K2 (b) first?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm78 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O X O . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O X X . . O . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . . O O X . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X O . . X . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O O X X X X X O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X a O X x O 2 . X . O X X O . . |
$$ | . X X . X O X O . 1 . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . X O O O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Skipping a lot of different options I've read out, at K3 is the answer that I've settled on as giving me the best chance of winning the race (though some lines are VERY close).

Because Black omitted E3 (a) from his order of moves, H3 (x) is no longer a forcing move for White. In addition, due to shortage of liberties, White needs 2 moves to approach at E3 (a), reversing the whole local position. White now has to find a way to increase liberties. From my current set of reading, at K3 is my best answer. This might change as further reading occurs, but I think I get just enough liberties out of it to at least make ko (though I thin I have a clean way to avoid ko on every line I've read).

Things could change as I read more, but I'm pretty happy with where things stand right now (locally; my play has been far from stellar in other respects).

I'll go into more details on the interesting aspects of this fight over the next few moves, now that I know rather than simply suspect we're headed down this road.

Let me know if this post was OK, observers. It was quite long, and I hope I didn't bore you all ... questions welcome!

i discussed this move in my previous post, this move is vital to making 2 eyes. im short on time today so variations later, its his sente anyway. i apologize for the inconvience

This is another critical reading point. The most important move here is D1. If he does NOT block at D1, this fight gets SO much easier for White. The following, for instance, gives White a whole bunch of forcing moves to reduce Black's liberties, and Black ends up way behind in the local fight:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm70 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O X O . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O X X . . O . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . . O O X . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X O . . X . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O O X X X X X O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X 7 O X . O . . X . O X X O . . |
$$ | . X X . 5 O X O . . . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . 8 6 . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

D1 is one of those points that you really want to take if your opponent misses it. The F1 capture can be taken back at F2 to keep the pressure on.

Now when he DOES play D1, I really need to connect at F1. In theory, I could start a ko early by playing H3 instead (which uses shortage of liberties to avoid a connect-and-die situation). It's a bad ko, though. I have better options later, so I'll connect.

This is getting exciting! Have I missed anything? Do the observers have any questions? I'll wait until the next move to write more.

i guess 1986 will win this game..

Ok thats LIFE

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm70 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O X O . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O X X . . O . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . . O O X . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X O . . X . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O O X X X X X O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O X . O c . X . O X X O . . |
$$ | . X X a X O X O . . . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . . b 7 6 . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

a&b represent eyes in this diagram,
now the (c) group is not alive yet because he dosen't have 2 eyes
lets see if i can keep it that way

here are some of my thoughts to attack the (c) group

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm70 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O X O d . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O X X . . O . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . . O O X . b . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X O c . X . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O O X X X X X O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O X . O . . X . O X X O . . |
$$ | . X X . X O X O . a . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

a-c are my 3 favoriate ways to approach this group
especially (a) because (a) is the vital point of the group

i want to kill this group just because it would be a big kill ,

as far as outside the area moves i LOVE (d) just take a big top side with one move, it would be hard for white to get around up top, i hope i have time to play there

so far my variations have been coming true, so lets see where the best plays for white are

Well if was white i would want to make 2 eyes ASAP so maybe moves like this are on Marcus's mind

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm70 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O X O . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O X X . . O . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . . O O X c . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X O . . X . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O O X X X X X O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O X . O . . X . O X X O . . |
$$ | . X X . X O X O . b a . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . X O d O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

ohh i just found a move (d) thats a eye killer, but its so slow, and i will just start fighting right off the back and play (a) from diagram 2 and go for the kill

oh well no use in getting too excited to early so lets see where he takes it, i think im going to finish out my night with wbaduk tsumego, reading is everything

oh yeah i almost forgot to tell u guys i hit 7 kyu; i have been taking a break from live games for this game, so its not a solid rank yet but i did hit it

Come at me!

I understand why he would play there it kills a eye, & like i stated in my previous post i would play here next (the vital point for white to build eyes).

The thinking behind that is im not alive and you are not alive either, so lets fight for it

now im stuck on is this going to be a take liberty fight, or is he going to start running.

if i was white i would run to extend the number of liberties and then take liberties

but im not white, so its his choice.

i don't even have variations in mind either because i have no idea what he is going to do yet

so here is a quick liberty count for the two groups

BLCK:7
WHT: 7

he has more room to run than me so that helps him

oh yeah i have one eye and he has no eyes so hopefully that helps me

( For beginners. ) Didn't follow this thread for a while;
the first thing that stood out was the broken shape for W:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ -------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X W # . # . . . .
$$ | . . X O W Q # W . . . .
$$ | . . . , W # # . . O . .
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

...went back and saw the problem move ( = ) and Magicwand's notes.

( For beginners. ) ...and then there was the broken shape for B,
which begs the question, how did the stone get there.
It's good to go back and study what went wrong there.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . .
$$ | . @ @ Y . . O O X . .
$$ | . . X @ @ @ O X O . .
$$ | . @ @ B B B X X O , .
$$ | . . O X . O X . O . .
$$ | . X X . X O X O . . .
$$ | . . . X O O O . . . .
$$ -----------------------[/go]

It's a trap!

I don't think I've misread, but if I have, the game is over. If I haven't misread, I still have to finish catching up, as I will likely still be a bit behind.

ok so he is going for the run, this is a good move to enclose the group & stop the run, i want to play here first just so he won't go for the breakout, because that would be ugly and my one eye group will die!

lets do some reading

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm80 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O X O . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O X X . . O . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . . O O X . 1 . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X O . . X . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O O X X X X X O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O X . O O 4 X . O X X O . . |
$$ | . X X . X O X O . X 2 5 9 . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . X O O O . . 3 8 6 7 . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm80 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O X O b . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O X X . . O . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . . O O X a 1 . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X O . . X . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O O X X X X X O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O X . O O 2 X . O X X O . . |
$$ | . X X . X O X O 6 X 4 3 . . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . X O O O . 8 7 5 9 . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

i really dont see a way for him to get out or make two eyes,

maybe some people are wondering why i didn't respond to attachment, well that stone is just for preventing two eyes

this group is a mystery, im sitting here playing with the stones working this out still hmmmn. i don't see how he can live, i must be missing something. Maybe im right and its dead. Oh well he has more liberties now so maybe he is going to go for taking the liberties of my one eye group

im just glad he didn't play (a) in the diag above because that would have been hard to stop the breakout, but enough talk lets see the next hand

i really want to play (b) i know i already said that but i can't wait to get the time

Well an interesting game. Magicwand is a better reader than I am. To me, it seemed clear that 1986 was not understanding the situation - he was looking for eyes in a capturing race, looking for a knife in a gun fight. Marcus seemed to know what was going on, so I was favoring his chances.

But Magicwand realized, before me, that regardless, the capturing race favored 1986.

However, perhaps 1986 has left the reservation here?

Yes, black's last move there doesn't feel right at all. Not responding directly to contact is, I think, correct, but K5 looks much better than the game move.

He didn't attach to a liberty. I'm pretty sure I win this race now. If I've miscounted liberties, I lose ... but after reading these lines move after move, I have to trust my reading is correct, right?