It is currently Wed Apr 30, 2025 5:57 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: anyone care to comment?
Post #1 Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:38 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 493
Liked others: 80
Was liked: 71
Rank: sdk
GD Posts: 175
I was lucky to win that game, but could equally have lost due to the lower right corner.
I am especially curious about possible variations on the lower right corner, but any comment on the overall flow of the game will be highly appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
I played black, by the way...


_________________
If you say no, Elwood and I will come here for breakfast, lunch, and dinner every day of the week.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: anyone care to comment?
Post #2 Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:01 am 
Tengen
User avatar

Posts: 4511
Location: Chatteris, UK
Liked others: 1589
Was liked: 656
Rank: Nebulous
GD Posts: 918
KGS: topazg
Black 185 @ S2

Black 35 at D7 then connect at 37.
Black 35 could also be at F2, I think White 36 at K6 would be uncomfortable.
Black 55 at K7 seems more reasonable shapewise.
Black 57 and 59 seem too slow, the stones aren't that important, though at least I'd follow with 63 at O7 locally.

It feels a bit too aggressive and greedy overall for Black. Like you were trying to harrass your opponents groups just because you could, instead of finding ways to develop your own points elsewhere.


This post by topazg was liked by: entropi
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: anyone care to comment?
Post #3 Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:59 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 232
Liked others: 103
Was liked: 39
Rank: KGS 1D
Hrm, I didn't really like b4, although it ended up alright for you. Taking the corner is a bit small given w got the influence on the right. Did you consider D9 or D10? I feel you only did so well in the middle because w was silly enough to play J3, which looks awful to me. Taking the corner and then immediately also the center is usually overplay.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: anyone care to comment?
Post #4 Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:44 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
Some joseki variations for the bottom right corner, and a couple of comments. :)



Edit: It seems that :b15: is OK, per Uberdude. :)

I have added a variation for :b35:. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


Last edited by Bill Spight on Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

This post by Bill Spight was liked by: entropi
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: anyone care to comment?
Post #5 Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:18 pm 
Judan

Posts: 6727
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 436
Was liked: 3720
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Regarding the lower right, I disagree with Bill that q4 was bad. Yes it does play into hane at head of 2 stones, but it creates a cut at p5 which helps n4 a lot. Maybe Suzuki/Kitani is too old for this move? (First hit in GoGoD is Shuko in 1974, whilst the suggested r5 and s3 had been played for ages before, and the bad shape is perhaps why it was a blind spot before). The key mistake was the crude extension at n5 which is rather a thank you move as white is happy to play the o6 shape point and black then wants to play in 2 places at once: s4 to secure the corner and l4 to help the middle stones. Instead playing l4 directly is a fine technique, holding back on the n5 forcing move until needed. This shape is covered in the excellent book Beyond Forcing Moves (viewtopic.php?f=17&t=5150).



Attachments:
9a0b4775a409dda219e0503d7917dd50238d85e1.sgf [4.03 KiB]
Downloaded 554 times

This post by Uberdude was liked by 2 people: entropi, illluck
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: anyone care to comment?
Post #6 Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:08 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 493
Liked others: 80
Was liked: 71
Rank: sdk
GD Posts: 175
Thanks for the answers!

A question about h4:

I know h4 was risky but I felt I had to invade somehow. Both for utilising the aji of n4-n5 stones and because the complete white center felt too big to leave so easily. If I don't invade or reduce at that moment, it may get much more difficult very soon, making my move at n5 worse than pass.

Does my point of view make sense or is it just typical kyu-mindset?

Bill identified it as a desparation move and Stable said that my opponents mistake (j3) helped me to get away with it. I agree with that but what would be the correct answer to h4 from white?
Or rather what would be my correct strategy to make use of n4-n5 stones and to deny white the whole center?

_________________
If you say no, Elwood and I will come here for breakfast, lunch, and dinner every day of the week.


This post by entropi was liked by: Bill Spight
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: anyone care to comment?
Post #7 Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:39 pm 
Judan

Posts: 6727
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 436
Was liked: 3720
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
The idea of n5 being a thank-you-move is something I only actually thought about in the last few months. It looks so nice and natural: after all it helps your cutting stone get more liberties in sente (and of course in some situations it is good). But sometimes leaning at m4 is a possibility (and of course this leaning does have a cost of strengthening that group) to strengthen your cutting stone in sente allowing you to then strike at the o6 shape point. The problem in this game is black also needs a move in the corner.

But thanks to Beyond Forcing Moves I found the lean at n4 (move 27) in a rather similar shape of http://www.online-go.com/games/board.php?boardID=312800. o5 would just be a thank you move, white p6, and then black presses at m4 but it doesn't do much. Instead by leaning and taking a liberty from the n3 stones I make my followup on them when white decides he has to tenuki to the p6 shape point so much more severe with the double hane. Of course if white extended/haned at l3/l4 then I would strike at o6 and my reading was that pretty much killed those stones.


This post by Uberdude was liked by: Bill Spight
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: anyone care to comment?
Post #8 Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:11 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
entropi wrote:
Thanks for the answers!

A question about h4:

I know h4 was risky but I felt I had to invade somehow. Both for utilising the aji of n4-n5 stones and because the complete white center felt too big to leave so easily. If I don't invade or reduce at that moment, it may get much more difficult very soon, making my move at n5 worse than pass.

Does my point of view make sense or is it just typical kyu-mindset?

Bill identified it as a desparation move and Stable said that my opponents mistake (j3) helped me to get away with it. I agree with that but what would be the correct answer to h4 from white?
Or rather what would be my correct strategy to make use of n4-n5 stones and to deny white the whole center?


I think that technically the White framework cries out for reduction. (I have added a variation to the SGF file. :)) However, Black is behind by a stone or so, since he is giving komi. With h4 you took a risk and it paid off. :)

Black made three mistakes to get so far behind. First was getting the floating stones. Second was to compound the error by increasing White's thickness on the right side. Third was to let White make a deep valley by playing low on the left side.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


This post by Bill Spight was liked by: entropi
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group