Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan

tchan001 · **#141**

shapenaji wrote:

badukjr: Then I think it is more accurate to say that this action jeopardizes Japanese support of the game. So, besides the Nihon Kiin (Which is obviously not going to be happy about it) maybe the Kansai Kiin? Have they ever invested in go abroad?

What a wonderful proposal. If the Kansai Kiin had a lot of money to invest abroad, they'd just love to invest in the 'Nihon Ki-in Go Institute of the West. :lol:

You'd probably have more luck convincing Bill Gates or Paul Allen to buy the SGC building and investing in the SGC than you would with the Kansai Kiin overseas investment.

shapenaji · **#142**

tchan001 wrote:

shapenaji wrote:

badukjr: Then I think it is more accurate to say that this action jeopardizes Japanese support of the game. So, besides the Nihon Kiin (Which is obviously not going to be happy about it) maybe the Kansai Kiin? Have they ever invested in go abroad?

What a wonderful proposal. If the Kansai Kiin had a lot of money to invest abroad, they'd just love to invest in the 'Nihon Ki-in Go Institute of the West. :lol:

You'd probably have more luck convincing Bill Gates or Paul Allen to buy the SGC building and investing in the SGC than you would with the Kansai Kiin overseas investment.

Oh, no it wasn't a proposal, I was just saying that the only other organizational relationship this threatens is the Kansai Kiin. And I was actually curious about whether or not the Kansai Kiin ever invested in go abroad...

Bok Choi · **#143**

badukJr wrote:

Japanese orgs react very badly to being sued. Unfortuantely the American side sometimes expects the Japan side to come to the table without any information provided in advance from the Americans.

This particular dispute seems between two Japanese organizations: The Nihon Kiin and the Nihon Kiin Institute of the West. If you read the litigation, most of the parties on both sides seem to be Japanese. One of the organizations is no doubt imbued with the spirit of Iwamoto. Let's hope the atomic bomb does not drop on this game of his.

Javaness2 · **#144**

I don't really see how there can be a cultural misunderstanding if one of the centrql players on the SGC side is Japanese.

Blog post
"Seattle go Center has an amazing atmosphere.This is all thanks to the contributions of Mr. Fukuda (who is standing next to the big Go board) who led the Go center from the very early days and the efforts of the members.

We thank you deeply."

The main thing that shocks me in reading through this document is the near $32,000 cost of the opening celebration. I wish I had that sort of money to spend on opening a Go club!

badukJr · **#145**

daal wrote:

badukJr wrote:

Japanese orgs react very badly to being sued.

Part of your argument, here dredged from a previous post, is that there is a cultural misunderstanding going on, and that the Japanese have a different way of doing business than the Americans. While this is undoubtedly true, I can't help but wonder if Japanese companies never sue one another for reasons similar to the SGC's, and if not, would it also be a standard business practice to throw one's weight around and not respond to requests for negotiations?

While the Americans are indeed often rightly accused of cultural ignorance, it's not immediately apparent to me that the SGC is doing something that couldn't happen in Japan.

It seems to me from reading the lawsuit, that the misunderstanding took place well before the litigation, and it was not due to the Pacific Ocean, but rather to differing perceptions on the nature of the agreement. To the Nihon Ki-in, it was contractual, to the SGC it was a matter of good will and an handshake.

In my experience, companies in Japan that do business with each other a lot are actually under one umbrella corporation. Making agreements between two companies not in this situation takes ages. Relationships are built up over years, and the first contracts will be for a very tiny bit of information exchange. I'm sure there are lawsuits but the circumstances would be severe. This is why from the Nihon Kiin's view, the SGC is de facto part of the Kiin. I'm sure they thought the SGC could continue without a permanent use place like almost every other club in the country.

It does seem to me that SGC thought it was all good will and a handshake, especially reading the litigation document. This is fine for a small 'go club', but when you involve a $71,000 loan and $3,000 lifetime memberships, its getting in a different territory. I would be angry if I dropped $3k on this and it disappeared because that is a lot of money for me personally, but it was a choice as well.

Quote:

I don't really see how there can be a cultural misunderstanding if one of the centrql players on the SGC side is Japanese.

Blog post
"Seattle go Center has an amazing atmosphere.This is all thanks to the contributions of Mr. Fukuda (who is standing next to the big Go board) who led the Go center from the very early days and the efforts of the members.

We thank you deeply."

How central is he these days? I am genuinely curious. He was clearly heavily involved at the beginning. In fact, he had to guarantee the financial situation to have the building purchased (which doesn't surprise me), but what about the past few years? I mean, its really hard to know, for me.

jts · **#146**

badukJr wrote:

Quote:

I don't really see how there can be a cultural misunderstanding if one of the centrql players on the SGC side is Japanese.

Blog post
"Seattle go Center has an amazing atmosphere.This is all thanks to the contributions of Mr. Fukuda (who is standing next to the big Go board) who led the Go center from the very early days and the efforts of the members.

We thank you deeply."

How central is he these days? I am genuinely curious. He was clearly heavily involved at the beginning. In fact, he had to guarantee the financial situation to have the building purchased (which doesn't surprise me), but what about the past few years? I mean, its really hard to know, for me.

From the affidavit, it looks like his sworn testimony and records are the central evidence in the case, and at the time of the receipt of the letter from the Nihon Kiin announcing the final decision to sell the center he was both a director of the SGC and held power of attorney for the Nihon Kiin (can't remember whether in the US as a whole or in the state of Washington only). Apparently he conducted all communications between Seattle and Japan, translating for both sides (except for legal documents which Nihon Kiin lawyers prepared in English). If you google his name, you'll see he was teaching the kids at a Japanese cultural festival just a few weeks ago.

wessanenoctupus · **#147**

The New York Go Center's Board of directors' official statement regarding the sale. http://www.nygocenter.org/statement-re-sgc

[Admin]
For historical purposes, I'm adding a copy here in case the link above should someday not work. -JB

Statement regarding the proposed sale of the Seattle Go Center

May 2nd, 2012 Comments Off

The Board of Directors of Nihon Ki-in America and the New York Go Center (now closed) supports the continued operation of the Seattle Go Center. From its founding, the Seattle Go Center has been particularly successful in uniting players from all cultural backgrounds and in drawing broad support from the Go community. In that sense, the Seattle Go Center has been the most successful of Iwamoto-sensei’s four Go Centers.

The NYGC Board was not consulted or informed of Nihon Ki-in Japan’s plan to close the Seattle Go Center. We never suggested that Seattle be sold to fund New York. While we appreciate Nihon Ki-in Japan’s interest in reestablishing the New York Go Center, we strongly disapprove of doing so at the expense of the Seattle Go Center.

Both the Seattle Go Center and the New York Go Center are capable of supporting themselves financially thanks to Iwamoto-sensei’s generous contribution of the funds to purchase the buildings and the support of local players. It is not necessary to sacrifice either of them. Seattle should remain and the NYGC should be redeveloped and operated to serve the international Go community in New York. Properly run and maintained, the New York Go Center will undoubtedly generate income.

The Nihon Ki-in has generously supported international go for decades with the creation of overseas chapters, establishment of the World Amateur Championships and the International Go Foundation, invitations for overseas teachers, the visits of hundreds of professionals, and more. We acknowledge and greatly appreciate these contributions, and we value our friendship with the Japanese Go world. We hope the Nihon Ki-in will reevaluate its relationship with the American Go Centers and will realize that unilateral decisions – taken without the input of those who have put Iwamoto-sensei’s vision into action with years of volunteer effort – will seriously damage the relationship between Japanese Go and the American Go community. That damage can be avoided with cooperation and collaboration.

We believe the situation calls for the Nihon Ki-in to negotiate a mutually acceptable agreement with the American Go Association, the Seattle Go Center and the New York Go Center to make the best use of Iwamoto-sensei’s generous endowment to Go in the United States.

[/Admin]

Demonstyle · **#148**

Bok Choi wrote:

badukJr wrote:

Japanese orgs react very badly to being sued. Unfortuantely the American side sometimes expects the Japan side to come to the table without any information provided in advance from the Americans.

This particular dispute seems between two Japanese organizations: The Nihon Kiin and the Nihon Kiin Institute of the West. If you read the litigation, most of the parties on both sides seem to be Japanese. One of the organizations is no doubt imbued with the spirit of Iwamoto. Let's hope the atomic bomb does not drop on this game of his.

I'm not familiar with the Nihon Ki-in Institute of the West, but I know that Nihon Ki-in America, the nonprofit corporation that ran the NYGC, is an American company and has no direct relation to Nihon Ki-in Japan. The name is unfortunately confusing. I imagine the situation is similar in Seattle.

oren · **#149**

Nihon Kiin has posted news of the law suit.

http://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/news/2012/05/post_406.html

speedchase · **#150**

I tried to read it using google translate, but I diddn't really get it.
Could someone who understands it please post a quick summary.

ez4u · **#151**

An article in the Daily Yomiuri.

shapenaji · **#152**

Quote:

Chizu Kobayashi, an executive director of the Nihon Ki-in in charge of overseas affairs, said: "After discussing whether we need overseas chapters in this Internet age, we decided to sell the building. We'll decide how to deal with the case after consulting with our lawyer."

This seems disingenuous... "Whether we need overseas chapters"?

That wasn't their argument before.

Furthermore, the overseas chapter in question involved no infusion of cash since its inception, so I can't see why they would suddenly decide that it was a burden. I don't see them closing all the other Iwamoto centers...This seems very fishy to me.

Also, after talking with some of the folks at the Seattle center, I learned that by selling the building, they will break a 10-year lease by the tenant currently renting. This is no small set of damages.

Mrs. Kobayashi appears to be changing her story... Election season at the Nihon Kiin is clearly in full swing.

gowan · **#153**

ez4u wrote:

An article in the Daily Yomiuri.

This article seems to say that Iwamoto gave the money to the Nihon Ki-in. I suppose the important thing is what conditions, if any, Iwamoto put on the gift of the money to the Nihon Ki-in.

badukJr · **#154**

shapenaji wrote:

Also, after talking with some of the folks at the Seattle center, I learned that by selling the building, they will break a 10-year lease by the tenant currently renting. This is no small set of damages.

Uh, no. Property ownership changing during lease terms happens all the time. The new owner must honor the old lease agreement (unless of course sale of the property terminates the lease as specified in the contract, and there is not fight there anyway)

Its kind of scary that the 'folks at the Seattle center' have such a loose handle on this, honestly.

hyperpape · **#155**

badukJr wrote:

shapenaji wrote:

Also, after talking with some of the folks at the Seattle center, I learned that by selling the building, they will break a 10-year lease by the tenant currently renting. This is no small set of damages.

Uh, no. Property ownership changing during lease terms happens all the time. The new owner must honor the old lease agreement (unless of course sale of the property terminates the lease as specified in the contract, and there is not fight there anyway)

Its kind of scary that the 'folks at the Seattle center' have such a loose handle on this, honestly.

Whose opinion is Shapenaji reporting, and how accurately is he reporting it? Obviously you can't answer those questions. We just don't know for sure if the leadership at the Seattle club thinks the lease matters, or if that's just Shapenaji's take. So you're approaching this with a loose handle on the facts.

hanekomu wrote:

shapenaji wrote:

Mrs. Kobayashi appears to be changing her story... Election season at the Nihon Kiin is clearly in full swing.

This could charitably be called "speculation", less charitably "disrespectful", but I'd call it "trolling".

(Of course, now I've made the mistake of feeding the troll...)

I don't think it's trolling. Not everyone who is wrong is a troll. Not even everyone who's wrong and loud about is a troll. Shapenaji is just someone who's pissed, and there's a difference.

shapenaji · **#156**

No, it's not me being pissed, or disrespectful, or trolling. (Please don't think of me as angry when I post, I may be sarcastic, but I'm more or less always in good spirits)

The earlier story was that the money was needed to reopen the NYGC. The article quotes Mrs. Kobayashi as saying that they discussed whether or not overseas chapters were necessary in an internet age, and after deciding they were not, they decided to close the club.

EDIT: I also don't believe I am wrong about the elections at the Nihon Kiin coming up hanekomu,

These two justifications are mutually exclusive, thus, the story has changed.

Secondly, as far as the lease agreement being broken, I'm only passing on what I heard. That effectively the center's value is in the land underneath it. Basically, their buyer would need to be a developer, and if so, the tenant's lease would not be maintained.

Javaness2 · **#157**

hanekomu wrote:

shapenaji wrote:

Mrs. Kobayashi appears to be changing her story... Election season at the Nihon Kiin is clearly in full swing.

This could charitably be called "speculation", less charitably "disrespectful", but I'd call it "trolling".

(Of course, now I've made the mistake of feeding the troll...)

You're not slightly biased are you?

mhlepore · **#158**

The Daily Yomiuri article:

One thing I found surprising about the daily yomiuri article is the comment that the NYGC was closed in 2010 due to the age of the building. This makes it seem like the building was on the verge of collapse.
I have not played there in several years, but it did not seem that old, especially by New York City standards. Can anyone comment on the state of the building?

The general nature of this conversation:

I infer that certain people making statements are relying on sources of information that they are not revealing. Otherwise people here would not be so far apart when looking at the same set of public facts. I question how helpful it is to speak out so strongly in favor of/against something when you cannot reveal the full details of why you feel that way.

badukJr · **#159**

hyperpape wrote:

badukJr wrote:

shapenaji wrote:

Also, after talking with some of the folks at the Seattle center, I learned that by selling the building, they will break a 10-year lease by the tenant currently renting. This is no small set of damages.

Uh, no. Property ownership changing during lease terms happens all the time. The new owner must honor the old lease agreement (unless of course sale of the property terminates the lease as specified in the contract, and there is not fight there anyway)

Its kind of scary that the 'folks at the Seattle center' have such a loose handle on this, honestly.

Whose opinion is Shapenaji reporting, and how accurately is he reporting it? Obviously you can't answer those questions. We just don't know for sure if the leadership at the Seattle club thinks the lease matters, or if that's just Shapenaji's take. So you're approaching this with a loose handle on the facts.

And then, by your own admission, so are you.

Joaz Banbeck · **#160**

badukJr wrote:

hyperpape wrote:

... So you're approaching this with a loose handle on the facts.

And then, by your own admission, so are you.

Gentlemen, can we skip the personal attacks?
Thanks,
JB, Admin

Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan

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