I think a lot of go players (myself included) attach some of their personal value to go. Some players would disconnect while losing so their rank wasn't affected, which is dumb because that number is essentially meaningless. If you're not quite 10k, you're not quite 10k regardless of the rank on the screen. Just study a bit and get back there. I also think it's a natural feeling to have, because it's a game we love. Just to get to single digit kyu requires a lot of study and effort.

I think the fear is that we've studied, didn't improve, and are afraid that's it for us. It was for me when I was high ddk.

Constant improvement in this game is something that I think is important to most, because there's always so much more to learn, which is what makes the game so fascinating. It also allows you to enjoy the game more.

Losing always hurts, but the pain is enjoyable too. If it didn't, we wouldn't experience the joy of winning. My 2nd congress was at Chicago in 2002 I believe, and I went 0-6 in the tournament, and that was most painful. But was a great time overall

That's nearly exactly how I feel about Go. Unfortunately, I tend to attach quite a bit of my "personal value" to Go, which means, that when I hit a barrier (just like now..) it is very difficult for me to keep on enjoying the game. Most important for me is constant improvement, as there is just SO much to learn (and so little time..) and it is really frustrating if you just don't progress and keep on making silly mistakes (as well as mistakes already unlearned). Enjoyment for me comes from a good game by both sides with interesting moves and as little (noticeable ) mistakes as possible.

But to answer the OP's question: I ticked "in between", because it depends on how the game was lost. If it was a good fight or a close game with interesting moves, I don't mind losing that much, it is part of the game. But if I made some silly mistakes and lose because of them, I can get quite mad at myself. I hope that Go can someday cure my perfectionism, as there ist not (yet) something like a perfect game and if there was, an amateur like me would never even come near such a level. Maybe what is called for is a change in the point of view of mistakes: they can make a game interesting, learning from each mistake a bit more about this wonderful game.

I don't know if anything of this makes any sense it just came to my mind while writing this. Interesting. Guess I'll go and think about it..

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Well, I'm a fan of losing... extravagantly.

Daniel is right that you can probably gain a stone by doing what he suggests. It's also the easiest way I can think of to hit a wall.

If you see a move that excites and interests you, even if you can't read it all the way, you should play it. If you don't you're going to come to that same crossroads again in the future, and you won't have any additional knowledge or confidence. Playing for a safer win will advance you a stone or 2. (It DOES remove a number of mistakes from your play). On the other hand, playing at the very edge of your ability to read strengthens you far more over the long haul.

IMO, the safe win avoids what is hard. You need to stretch your mind to get stronger.

When you begin to measure your progress by the depth of your reading and the scope of your intuition, rather than by how many wins you can pull off, then losing has no barb.

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Tactics yes, Tact no...

A couple nights ago at go club a 4d suggested I try to play to make both sides as uncomfortable as possible. The resulting 2 stone game went very well for me. I need to try it more, but I think it will help me. I've been losing most of my games since the AGA decided I was 2d, perhaps that's the wall shapenaji mentions.

If you imagine learning as a two part process, discovering new knowledge and consolidating existing knowledge-- my prior comment probably applies mainly to the consolidation phase. I only hinted at the discovery part. This probably reflects my own lopsided understanding.

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That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
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My (sadly neglected, but not forgotten) project: http://dailyjoseki.com

Yeah, erasing those idiot-mistakes would make me at least two stones better

Everyone who's involved in the game should get a little angry about losing. I TRY to use the anger as an extra motivation, but it happens that I have to logg off and get myself a non-go book...

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Yunzi makes the world go round, the world go round...

Sorry for dredging up a year old thread, but after losing a few games today, I thought of some of the things people had said back then which had helped me a lot, and the thought occurred to me: Losing is getting the butt that is your mind kicked, but I've gotten better at shaking it off. Of course it hurts, but it can also make you tougher.

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Patience, grasshopper.

Losing does not hurt but not improving does. I want to ask my fellow eternal kyu players, do you have a convincing explanation that does not hurt your ego, why a dan player managed to get to that level and you could not? Personally I cannot find an explanation, unless I lie to myself by thinking that each and every dan player played and/or studies much more than me. No, of course that is a lie, but then I really don't have an explanation. How do you fellow eternal kyu players cope with that feeling?

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If you say no, Elwood and I will come here for breakfast, lunch, and dinner every day of the week.

They probably do. I mean, not each and every single one, but if you look at the game records for rapidly improving players, you'll often find that they play a lot. And given that some of them play on multiple servers and face to face, as well... How much they study is hard to say, but I'm perfectly happy to believe they study a lot too, even if they aren't ostentatious about it. And they probably study and play games in ways that are challenging, whereas I at least frequently study for amusement or self-satisfaction, and play games to relax.

And is it really so bad if it comes easily to them? If you go into the beginner's room and look at the DDKs, I think you'll find that you like the people who spent three months at 15k every bit as much as the people who spent three days at 15k. When it's other people, it's clearly not so important; and hopefully when you realize that other people see you in this light, you'll start to see yourself that way too.

Fascinating thread.

I have it fairly easy as a ddk. I can't really comment on losing being hard. Progress just happens as I iron out some of the easier to fix errors in my play or get a bit stronger in some part of the game or especially if my thinking suddenly changes about how to play. When the wall comes though it's going to be hard on me, I know it. I lose a lot but I play substantially stronger players a lot and I find when I come back to play people my level I've advanced a bit. Obviously I've no idea if this works for sdk's.

If I had some advice for other beginners and ddk's it'd be play stronger players and watch what they do substantially differently to you especially with regard to big moves, tenuki and sente moves. Progression just seems to happen for me if I do this despite me not having the time or energy to play many ranked games. If losing to substantially stronger players bothers you seriously, well I've no advice really, I play to learn not to win against them.

I've found that when I play games in person, rather than over the internet, losing doesn't hurt as bad. Part of the social aspect is lost when you play over the internet, and I often feel like I'm not playing my best because I'm distracted, for example by my web browser open in the other window, or whatever else. So it's easy to place the blame on many different things. Plus, when I'm playing online, there is a very strong tendency to just give up and click if I can't think of anything else, even if I should have thought a little bit longer.

It's hard to explain, but I definitely think that playing in person will lead to more overall enjoyment and less hard times when you lose.

For me losing hurt if I made really dumb mistakes. If I played a really good game and still lost, it could be disappointing, but it didn't hurt the same way. This is how it used to be for me.

Recently I have gotten over these feeling because I think I have developed more as a person (not related to Go at all.) I think that Go can bring out a lot of things related to personal character that are worth investigating.

My advice for improvement in Go if you have this problem is to pay attention to what you're thinking. During a game if you're not reading, counting, or judging a position, what exactly are you doing?

My explanation has always been the late age at which I started. I don't think that there are many teenagers who get stuck in the kyu ranks and keep slogging at it the way some of us older folks do. I suspect that most of them who do not progress quickly give it up in favor of something easier.

I personally don't know anyone who started when I did who has reached dan level. I suspect that the reason is that we have ingrained certain mental habits that are detrimental to high level go. What makes matters worse, is that we began to apply these habits to go as soon as we started learning the game. Of course we learn to recognize cases in which our instinct is wrong and our false priorities lead us astray, but because the grooves in our minds are deep, it is easy to slip back into them. My mind for example jumps at the opportunity to think about your post instead of thinking about what Naiwei Rui has to say about some joseki I was studying...

I also doubt that people who easily reach dan ranks necessarily study more than I do. I do however suspect that their studies are more effective than mine. They are more effective, because they can remember more accurately the go-specific knowledge because, to put it simply, (and simply is the only way I can put it), there is more room in their brains for it. There is only so much go that can fit into the space my brain has allotted for go - which may be why it spills over into other parts (before going out, taking a leak is urgent, while brushing the teeth is merely big).

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Patience, grasshopper.

So I looked at your kgs account, and don't count yourself out. You've still been improving for three years.

That's part of what makes it easier for me. I actually have been improving, just very slowly. I was a 20 kyu in 2005, made it into SDK territory by the end of 2006. From there on out, I was pushing myself for a few years. I was studying, even if I wasn't doing an hour of tsumego a day (that was my goal for awhile), and eventually I stalled. But it turns out that I was still improving, even as I slowed down in my studying. Now I'm a few stones stronger than I was then, and I still seem to be absorbing things. So I cross my fingers and hope that one day I'll be a dan player.

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Occupy Babel!

Hmm, what age are you guys talking about? I feel old enough taking up the game at 30. Most of the local players are a fair bit younger than me. But I feel my progress is ok given how few real time ranked games I manage to get in on KGS (55 ranked games for 30k-14k is reasonable enough I think).

Edit: I should say that I'm struggling to break 19k on both OGS and DGS at the moment. So it's not rosy across the board.

I'm gonna be 34 soon, and I started playing Go actively in February of this year. I've known the rules for a long time, and I used to enjoy solving go problems some years ago (at the time I was able to do problems in GGPfB 2, but in all truth I never played more than 5 actual games in my life before February of this year. So I'm about KGS 9k right now.

I'm not sure what the attribute the fast growth to. I study a lot, read a lot of books, and try to do a lot of tsumego. I also try to play in person games as much as possible, and get my games reviewed frequently in KGS Teaching Ladder. On top of that, I also take some paid lessons from a couple different teachers online.

in many fields in life the formula for success is something like: talent * effort * luck

in go it is more like: talent * effort

in a single game it is pretty much: skill

if you lost, you failed. there's no chance, no hidden knowledge, no excuse. losing means you were not good enough. if you can't improve, then you either don't work hard enough, or you are again too bad to make it.

this is formulated much more harshly than it needs to be, but it shows why losing hurts

PS: i know a man who sometimes loses the first game of the tournament against an opponent he doesn't like losing to and then goes on losing the other four games just because he is so upset from the first round. watching him shows you that losing can cause real agony

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Spilling gasoline feels good.

I might be wrong, but probably not.