It is currently Thu May 15, 2025 5:12 pm

View unanswered posts | View active topics View unread posts | View new posts | View your posts


Board index » Improve Your Game » Study Group

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]



Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 1 of 1
  [ 9 posts ] 
  Print view Previous topic | Next topic 
Author Message
Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Yuletide joseki deviation
Post #1 Posted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:06 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
It's a Black Christmas for White, who has deviated from joseki. (Go to the last move, :w22:)



Black to play and drop a lump of black coal in White's stocking.

Enjoy! :)

I do not expect to respond until after Christmas.

From this hamete book, はめ手千態 : 囲碁秘訣 by 中根鳳次郎 (Nakane Hojiro) 5 dan, 1911. URL: http://dl.ndl.go.jp/info:ndljp/pid/861313

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

This post by Bill Spight was liked by: Kirby
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Yuletide joseki deviation
Post #2 Posted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 6:10 pm 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 5546
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 1104
Was liked: 1457
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
EDIT: The attempt below turns out to be wrong...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$------------------------------|
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$. . . . . . . X O . O O O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . O . O X X X X |
$$. . . . . . . . . X X O O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . 5 1 2 . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$------------------------------|
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$. . . . . . . X O . O O O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . O . O X X X X |
$$. . . . . . . . . X X O O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 O 5 |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . X O 3 4 |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$------------------------------|
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$. . . . . . . X O 3 O O O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . O 2 O X X X X |
$$. . . . . . . . . X X O O X 1 |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . X O . O |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

White has no ko threats.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$------------------------------|
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$. . . . . . . X O O O O O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . O X O X X X X |
$$. . . . . . . . . X X O O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . X O O 1 |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . X O . O |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Shaddy
 Post subject: Re: Yuletide joseki deviation
Post #3 Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 2:07 pm 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1206
Liked others: 51
Was liked: 192
Rank: KGS 5d
KGS: Str1fe, Midorisuke
@Joaz:

I don't think that's a real ko threat?

R11 first. White's standard counter is S10, but he's too short of liberties here, and it fails.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Yuletide joseki deviation
Post #4 Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 7:15 pm 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 5546
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 1104
Was liked: 1457
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
Shaddy wrote:
I don't think that's a real ko threat


Arrggg...I think he's right.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$------------------------------|
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . 9 6 5 7 . 8 X . |
$$. . . . . . . X O 4 O O O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . O 2 O X X X X |
$$. . . . . . . . . X X O O X 1 |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . X O O 3 |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . X O . O |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Shaddy wrote:
...
R11 first. White's standard counter is S10, but he's too short of liberties here, and it fails.


Diagram?

_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline moyoaji
 Post subject: Re: Yuletide joseki deviation
Post #5 Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 8:50 pm 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 773
Location: Michigan, USA
Liked others: 143
Was liked: 218
Rank: KGS 1 kyu
Universal go server handle: moyoaji
I just read about something like this in "Tesuji" so I'm going to just steal that tesuji and that's my answer.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$------------------------------|
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$. . . . . . . X O . O O O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . O . O X X X X |
$$. . . . . . . . . X X O O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . 1 . 2 O . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . 5 4 6 . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . 7 3 8 . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


:b1: threatens to capture the two cutting stones. If white saves them to keep black split then black has the :b3: tesuji.

:w6: is necessary otherwise :b7: at :w6: just ends everything. At :b9: white is dead locally.

The only question is: who wins the capturing race?

I read out a few variations and I don't see any way for white to win. When looking at is straight-up, black has 6 liberties when you take the needed approach move at T14 into account to white's 4 liberties. If white tries to get an eye with T12 then black can push at R18 threatening to make life. White can force him into a bent-4 shape, but trying to kill the bent 4 doesn't even result in ko, white still dies from a lack of liberties.

So then I ask if :b3: directly is just better? I forget which player came up with that tip - I think it was a European dan - but they said that if move 1 works okay, consider 3 directly.

And that gives the move that Shaddy suggested. But how is one supposed to deal with the original :w4: - now :w2:? I think cutting just works

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Atari 1
$$------------------------------|
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$. . . . . . . X O . O O O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . O . O X X X X |
$$. . . . . . . . . X X O O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . . 7 6 4 . O . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . 5 X O . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Atari 2
$$------------------------------|
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$. . . . . . . X O . O O O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . O . O X X X X |
$$. . . . . . . . . X X O O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . 5 . O . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . 4 X O . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


I'll go with Shaddy's answer.

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Shaddy
 Post subject: Re: Yuletide joseki deviation
Post #6 Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 9:33 pm 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1206
Liked others: 51
Was liked: 192
Rank: KGS 5d
KGS: Str1fe, Midorisuke
@Joaz and Moyo

Moyoaji posted my diagram, and the resistance I mentioned actually just doesn't exist in this situation- I misread.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline SmoothOper
 Post subject: Re: Yuletide joseki deviation
Post #7 Posted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 5:23 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 946
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 41
Rank: IGS 5kyu
KGS: KoDream
IGS: SmoothOper
I thought black was supposed to play the snap back threat first.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$------------------------------|
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$. . . . . . . X O . O O O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . O . O X X X X |
$$. . . . . . . . . X X O O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . 5 1 2 . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$------------------------------|
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$. . . . . . . X O . O O O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . O . O X X X X |
$$. . . . . . . . . X X O O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . 3 2 4 O . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


After which neither of the cuts work.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$------------------------------|
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$. . . . . . . X O . O O O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . O . O X X X X |
$$. . . . . . . . . X X O O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . 3 2 4 O . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . 7 X O . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 9 . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$------------------------------|
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$. . . . . . . X O . O O O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . O . O X X X X |
$$. . . . . . . . . X X O O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . 3 2 4 O B |
$$. . . . . . . . . . 7 X O W . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 8 . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . 9 0 . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . B W . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . B W . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . B W . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . B . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Last edited by SmoothOper on Thu Dec 26, 2013 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Shaddy
 Post subject: Re: Yuletide joseki deviation
Post #8 Posted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 10:59 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1206
Liked others: 51
Was liked: 192
Rank: KGS 5d
KGS: Str1fe, Midorisuke
SmoothOper, please hide your diagrams!
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Yuletide joseki deviation
Post #9 Posted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:58 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
I liked the way that Nakane dealt with the problem position. :)

Out of curiosity, I decided to look up this hamete in the Suzuki-Kitani Small Joseki Dictionary. Their assessment differs somewhat from Nakane's. They were writing a half a century later, and both of them were stronger players than Nakane. The SGF file includes variations from both books. :)

Enjoy!


_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

This post by Bill Spight was liked by: Joaz Banbeck
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 1 of 1
  [ 9 posts ] 

Board index » Improve Your Game » Study Group

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group