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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Yuletide joseki deviation
Post #1 Posted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:06 pm 
Honinbo

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It's a Black Christmas for White, who has deviated from joseki. (Go to the last move, :w22:)



Black to play and drop a lump of black coal in White's stocking.

Enjoy! :)

I do not expect to respond until after Christmas.

From this hamete book, はめ手千態 : 囲碁秘訣 by 中根鳳次郎 (Nakane Hojiro) 5 dan, 1911. URL: http://dl.ndl.go.jp/info:ndljp/pid/861313

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— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Yuletide joseki deviation
Post #2 Posted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 6:10 pm 
Judan
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EDIT: The attempt below turns out to be wrong...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$------------------------------|
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$. . . . . . . X O . O O O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . O . O X X X X |
$$. . . . . . . . . X X O O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . 5 1 2 . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$------------------------------|
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$. . . . . . . X O . O O O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . O . O X X X X |
$$. . . . . . . . . X X O O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 O 5 |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . X O 3 4 |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$------------------------------|
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$. . . . . . . X O 3 O O O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . O 2 O X X X X |
$$. . . . . . . . . X X O O X 1 |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . X O . O |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

White has no ko threats.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$------------------------------|
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$. . . . . . . X O O O O O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . O X O X X X X |
$$. . . . . . . . . X X O O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . X O O 1 |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . X O . O |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

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Offline Shaddy
 Post subject: Re: Yuletide joseki deviation
Post #3 Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 2:07 pm 
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@Joaz:

I don't think that's a real ko threat?

R11 first. White's standard counter is S10, but he's too short of liberties here, and it fails.
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Yuletide joseki deviation
Post #4 Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 7:15 pm 
Judan
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Shaddy wrote:
I don't think that's a real ko threat


Arrggg...I think he's right.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$------------------------------|
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . 9 6 5 7 . 8 X . |
$$. . . . . . . X O 4 O O O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . O 2 O X X X X |
$$. . . . . . . . . X X O O X 1 |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . X O O 3 |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . X O . O |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Shaddy wrote:
...
R11 first. White's standard counter is S10, but he's too short of liberties here, and it fails.


Diagram?

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Offline moyoaji
 Post subject: Re: Yuletide joseki deviation
Post #5 Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 8:50 pm 
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I just read about something like this in "Tesuji" so I'm going to just steal that tesuji and that's my answer.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$------------------------------|
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$. . . . . . . X O . O O O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . O . O X X X X |
$$. . . . . . . . . X X O O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . 1 . 2 O . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . 5 4 6 . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . 7 3 8 . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


:b1: threatens to capture the two cutting stones. If white saves them to keep black split then black has the :b3: tesuji.

:w6: is necessary otherwise :b7: at :w6: just ends everything. At :b9: white is dead locally.

The only question is: who wins the capturing race?

I read out a few variations and I don't see any way for white to win. When looking at is straight-up, black has 6 liberties when you take the needed approach move at T14 into account to white's 4 liberties. If white tries to get an eye with T12 then black can push at R18 threatening to make life. White can force him into a bent-4 shape, but trying to kill the bent 4 doesn't even result in ko, white still dies from a lack of liberties.

So then I ask if :b3: directly is just better? I forget which player came up with that tip - I think it was a European dan - but they said that if move 1 works okay, consider 3 directly.

And that gives the move that Shaddy suggested. But how is one supposed to deal with the original :w4: - now :w2:? I think cutting just works

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Atari 1
$$------------------------------|
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$. . . . . . . X O . O O O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . O . O X X X X |
$$. . . . . . . . . X X O O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . . 7 6 4 . O . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . 5 X O . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Atari 2
$$------------------------------|
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$. . . . . . . X O . O O O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . O . O X X X X |
$$. . . . . . . . . X X O O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . 5 . O . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . 4 X O . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


I'll go with Shaddy's answer.

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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Offline Shaddy
 Post subject: Re: Yuletide joseki deviation
Post #6 Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 9:33 pm 
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@Joaz and Moyo

Moyoaji posted my diagram, and the resistance I mentioned actually just doesn't exist in this situation- I misread.
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Offline SmoothOper
 Post subject: Re: Yuletide joseki deviation
Post #7 Posted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 5:23 am 
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I thought black was supposed to play the snap back threat first.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$------------------------------|
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$. . . . . . . X O . O O O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . O . O X X X X |
$$. . . . . . . . . X X O O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . 5 1 2 . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$------------------------------|
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$. . . . . . . X O . O O O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . O . O X X X X |
$$. . . . . . . . . X X O O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . 3 2 4 O . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


After which neither of the cuts work.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$------------------------------|
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$. . . . . . . X O . O O O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . O . O X X X X |
$$. . . . . . . . . X X O O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . 3 2 4 O . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . 7 X O . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 9 . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$------------------------------|
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$. . . . . . . X O . O O O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . O . O X X X X |
$$. . . . . . . . . X X O O X . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . 3 2 4 O B |
$$. . . . . . . . . . 7 X O W . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 8 . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . 9 0 . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . B W . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . B W . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . B W . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . B . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Last edited by SmoothOper on Thu Dec 26, 2013 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Shaddy
 Post subject: Re: Yuletide joseki deviation
Post #8 Posted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 10:59 am 
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SmoothOper, please hide your diagrams!
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Yuletide joseki deviation
Post #9 Posted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:58 am 
Honinbo

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I liked the way that Nakane dealt with the problem position. :)

Out of curiosity, I decided to look up this hamete in the Suzuki-Kitani Small Joseki Dictionary. Their assessment differs somewhat from Nakane's. They were writing a half a century later, and both of them were stronger players than Nakane. The SGF file includes variations from both books. :)

Enjoy!


_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

This post by Bill Spight was liked by: Joaz Banbeck
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