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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #281 Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:16 pm 
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dfan wrote:
How do people feel about this fight? Last time I asked, most people said they would rather be White.

black is better for sure.

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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #282 Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:00 pm 
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I also think black is in better shape.

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Offline mitsun
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #283 Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:21 pm 
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dfan wrote:
How do people feel about this fight? Last time I asked, most people said they would rather be White.
I still prefer W. B will profit from this local fight, but I think W has more than enough cash in the bank to compensate.
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #284 Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 10:53 pm 
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dfan wrote:
...
How do people feel about this fight? Last time I asked, most people said they would rather be White.


I count white at about 45 points, black about 30. With komi that puts white up at least 20 points.

After that, white has few prospects for more territory. He has 10 more points with R14. And 5 more with B6. That is around 60 points. Plus komi.

Black has R13 himself He has something around H16. He has B6 and M17 and B13. Each of those is worth 5 to 10 points. And then there is J6 which is about 15. At a minimum that is 60 points.

I now call it even.

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Offline dfan
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #285 Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:00 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm60 ACTUAL GAME: Move 60
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X 1 . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #286 Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:36 am 
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pretty much one way street. and black looks better for sure.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm60 ACTUAL GAME: Move 60
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 4 . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X 6 X 1 3 7 . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O 8 . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #287 Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 8:36 am 
Judan
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Sorry, MW, but that looks like a game between two bricklayers, not two pros. The plodding style burns aji on both sides.

I expect this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm60
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 2 . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X 1 . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Dusk Eagle
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #288 Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:22 am 
Gosei
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I don't think the crosscut goes anywhere. It seems like a rash amateur move to me.
:b4: seems to handle it just fine.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 3 2 . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X 1 . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is what I expect, though I admit I haven't read a lot yet.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X 1 . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #289 Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 10:56 am 
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Sorry, MW, but that looks like a game between two bricklayers, not two pros. The plodding style burns aji on both sides.

I expect this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm60
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 2 . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X 1 . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

can you give me one reason why crosscut is better than the diag i draw?
if you can i will say you are stronger than i am because i can not find any reason to crosscut.

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Offline dfan
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #290 Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:49 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 ACTUAL GAME: Move 61
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Jedo
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #291 Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:25 pm 
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I must say I'm pretty confused about this last move. This looks to me like the kind of thing I thought a pro would never do and the kind of thing I try not to do. The hane underneath looked a lot better to me. Does someone have an idea what this last move is not vulgar and is the most aggressive response? I suppose extending might be stronger than haneing since it allows white less hane monkeying around forcing moves. Perhaps it forces white to fix his own shape without assistance, and black will use his next move to try and smash him?

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #292 Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:45 pm 
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Jedo wrote:
I must say I'm pretty confused about this last move. This looks to me like the kind of thing I thought a pro would never do and the kind of thing I try not to do. The hane underneath looked a lot better to me. ...


I second all of that.

If Dfan had told us that move 61 was not the hane underneath, I would have guessed that it was the hane on top. But such a passive move like the extension looks all wrong to me.

Anyway, my prediction for the next move is:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 ACTUAL GAME: Move 61
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


And, FWIW, I think that later white can reduce/invade that corner like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . C X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . W O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It lives because of the cut at D15 and the connection to B11.

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Offline Harleqin
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #293 Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:23 am 
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I guess it is a quick fix to get to turn in the centre:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O 3 . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline dfan
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #294 Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 7:27 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm62 ACTUAL GAME: Move 62
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline phrax
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #295 Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:43 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm62 Predicted Move 63
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 3 8 . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O 7 6 . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Something like this looks interesting to me. Try to keep white flat and start building something to eastward, or at least don't let white expand easily. And any attack on 63 can help black settle the corner.
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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #296 Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:46 am 
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I'm pretty sure :b65: and :b67: violate the "don't peep where you might want to cut" rule.

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Offline phrax
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #297 Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:57 am 
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daniel_the_smith wrote:
I'm pretty sure :b65: and :b67: violate the "don't peep where you might want to cut" rule.


I debated about that, and it certainly might be my kyu-ish thinking. But it seemed like this might be one of those "rules were made to be broken" times. I just think white looks very static now, and black gets to start something in the middle in sente.
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #298 Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 10:15 am 
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phrax wrote:
daniel_the_smith wrote:
I'm pretty sure :b65: and :b67: violate the "don't peep where you might want to cut" rule.


I debated about that, and it certainly might be my kyu-ish thinking. But it seemed like this might be one of those "rules were made to be broken" times. I just think white looks very static now, and black gets to start something in the middle in sente.


White has really bad aji with the black push at E12. For black to play :b65: at G14 is major aji keshi.

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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #299 Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 10:37 am 
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phrax wrote:
daniel_the_smith wrote:
I'm pretty sure :b65: and :b67: violate the "don't peep where you might want to cut" rule.


I debated about that, and it certainly might be my kyu-ish thinking. But it seemed like this might be one of those "rules were made to be broken" times. I just think white looks very static now, and black gets to start something in the middle in sente.


You can break the rules for a clear benefit. "Something in the middle" is NOT a clear benefit (in this case I think the "something" is some weak black stones, not a benefit at all). If black wants points here he should do what magicwand suggested. If black wants to attack, plastering a bunch of black stones all over the now-well-connected white stones is... not the best... way to do it. :)

Joaz mentions one specific thing you lose by peeping, and there might be others, too.

Really, I can only think of two times when you can break the rule: you must live and peeping is the only way, or you make clear territory that's bigger than white's. Neither is true here.

EDIT: one more thought:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm62 Predicted Move 63
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B W B . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , B W W B . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . B W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B W W B . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


This is horrible shape for black no matter how it happens.

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Offline phrax
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #300 Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:57 pm 
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Joaz & Daniel: Thanks for the counterpoints/insight.
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