Prokovich game

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Magicwand
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by Magicwand »

pretty much one way street. and black looks better for sure.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm60 ACTUAL GAME: Move 60
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 4 . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X 6 X 1 3 7 . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O 8 . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Sorry, MW, but that looks like a game between two bricklayers, not two pros. The plodding style burns aji on both sides.

I expect this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm60
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 2 . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X 1 . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by Dusk Eagle »

I don't think the crosscut goes anywhere. It seems like a rash amateur move to me.
:b4: seems to handle it just fine.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 3 2 . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X 1 . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is what I expect, though I admit I haven't read a lot yet.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X 1 . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by Magicwand »

Joaz Banbeck wrote:Sorry, MW, but that looks like a game between two bricklayers, not two pros. The plodding style burns aji on both sides.

I expect this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm60
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 2 . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X 1 . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

can you give me one reason why crosscut is better than the diag i draw?
if you can i will say you are stronger than i am because i can not find any reason to crosscut.
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by dfan »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 ACTUAL GAME: Move 61
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by Jedo »

I must say I'm pretty confused about this last move. This looks to me like the kind of thing I thought a pro would never do and the kind of thing I try not to do. The hane underneath looked a lot better to me. Does someone have an idea what this last move is not vulgar and is the most aggressive response? I suppose extending might be stronger than haneing since it allows white less hane monkeying around forcing moves. Perhaps it forces white to fix his own shape without assistance, and black will use his next move to try and smash him?
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Jedo wrote:I must say I'm pretty confused about this last move. This looks to me like the kind of thing I thought a pro would never do and the kind of thing I try not to do. The hane underneath looked a lot better to me. ...


I second all of that.

If Dfan had told us that move 61 was not the hane underneath, I would have guessed that it was the hane on top. But such a passive move like the extension looks all wrong to me.

Anyway, my prediction for the next move is:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 ACTUAL GAME: Move 61
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


And, FWIW, I think that later white can reduce/invade that corner like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . C X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . W O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It lives because of the cut at D15 and the connection to B11.
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by Harleqin »

I guess it is a quick fix to get to turn in the centre:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O 3 . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by dfan »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm62 ACTUAL GAME: Move 62
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by phrax »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm62 Predicted Move 63
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 3 8 . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O 7 6 . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Something like this looks interesting to me. Try to keep white flat and start building something to eastward, or at least don't let white expand easily. And any attack on 63 can help black settle the corner.
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by daniel_the_smith »

I'm pretty sure :b65: and :b67: violate the "don't peep where you might want to cut" rule.
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by phrax »

daniel_the_smith wrote:I'm pretty sure :b65: and :b67: violate the "don't peep where you might want to cut" rule.


I debated about that, and it certainly might be my kyu-ish thinking. But it seemed like this might be one of those "rules were made to be broken" times. I just think white looks very static now, and black gets to start something in the middle in sente.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

phrax wrote:
daniel_the_smith wrote:I'm pretty sure :b65: and :b67: violate the "don't peep where you might want to cut" rule.


I debated about that, and it certainly might be my kyu-ish thinking. But it seemed like this might be one of those "rules were made to be broken" times. I just think white looks very static now, and black gets to start something in the middle in sente.


White has really bad aji with the black push at E12. For black to play :b65: at G14 is major aji keshi.
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by daniel_the_smith »

phrax wrote:
daniel_the_smith wrote:I'm pretty sure :b65: and :b67: violate the "don't peep where you might want to cut" rule.


I debated about that, and it certainly might be my kyu-ish thinking. But it seemed like this might be one of those "rules were made to be broken" times. I just think white looks very static now, and black gets to start something in the middle in sente.


You can break the rules for a clear benefit. "Something in the middle" is NOT a clear benefit (in this case I think the "something" is some weak black stones, not a benefit at all). If black wants points here he should do what magicwand suggested. If black wants to attack, plastering a bunch of black stones all over the now-well-connected white stones is... not the best... way to do it. :)

Joaz mentions one specific thing you lose by peeping, and there might be others, too.

Really, I can only think of two times when you can break the rule: you must live and peeping is the only way, or you make clear territory that's bigger than white's. Neither is true here.

EDIT: one more thought:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm62 Predicted Move 63
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B W B . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , B W W B . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . B W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B W W B . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


This is horrible shape for black no matter how it happens.
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
--
My (sadly neglected, but not forgotten) project: http://dailyjoseki.com
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phrax
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by phrax »

Joaz & Daniel: Thanks for the counterpoints/insight.
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