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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Problem from SDK game
Post #1 Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:09 am 
Gosei
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KGS: greendemon
Tygem: greendemon
DGS: smaragdaemon
OGS: emeraldemon
This came up in a game yesterday:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Moves 1 to 9
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X X . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . X X X O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


What is the best move for both sides? In the actual game, it went like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Gote Seki
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . 6 . 7 9 8 X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . 5 1 3 X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X X 2 4 X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . X X X O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


But I'm wondering if there's a better way to play.
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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: Problem from SDK game
Post #2 Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:18 am 
Gosei
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Rank: KGS 3k
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KGS: Chew
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . 9 8 6 7 X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . 5 1 3 X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X X 2 4 X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . X X X O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Unless I'm missing something, this seems better for black. The followup could change, but it seems like 6 is the vital point to prevent a killing shape, which would get a seki, as in the real game. But I could easily be missing something. =D

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Offline entropi
 Post subject: Re: Problem from SDK game
Post #3 Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:29 am 
Lives in gote

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Referring to the game sequence, why not :b8: at :w9: ?
White can make an eye by capturing the black stone but black has enough outside liberties to capture 5 stones back, thus creating an alive eye shape (without seki- i.e. 10 points better for black). I may easily be missing something though.

Apart from that, it's indeed a nice problem. I would be surprised if it turns out that it can be killed.

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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: Problem from SDK game
Post #4 Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:37 am 
Gosei
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KGS: greendemon
Tygem: greendemon
DGS: smaragdaemon
OGS: emeraldemon
So it seems like the right thing would be for white to fill outside liberties, which forces black to protect?
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Offline Loons
 Post subject: Re: Problem from SDK game
Post #5 Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:43 pm 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Moves 1 to 9
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . 3 1 . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X X 2 . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . X X X O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Did people consider this 3 ?

2 doesn't seem like an obvious move to me anyway. I'd start to think about something like

My attempt:
What about
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Moves 1 to 9
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . 4 . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . 3 1 2 X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X X . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . X X X O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


After which I have trouble seeing a successful continuation for white. If he captures 4, he runs into shortage of liberty problems.



For fun, here`s one of those ko-everywhereish problems from one of my games:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black to play and kill
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | X O . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . O . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]


Anyone else have any fun tsumego from games ?

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Offline LR24
 Post subject: Re: Problem from SDK game
Post #6 Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 11:31 am 
Dies in gote
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W best for white
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . 3 1 2 . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X X . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . X X X O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B best for black
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . 2 1 3 . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 O X . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X X . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . X X X O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]





I see no way for white to kill or even get seki.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . 4 1 2 X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X X 3 . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . X X X O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

/edit: uhh, this turns into a ko with a-c. black 4 at a, as loons suggested, looks good :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . b a . c X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . 3 1 2 X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X X 4 . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . X X X O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W after the exchange
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . O O X 1 . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X 2 6 3 4 X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X X 5 . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O o o X X X O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Of course black needs one of the liberties marked o, so he needs to defend once more after this exchange.

Usual "I'm a kyu-Player so don't believe anything I say."-disclamer here.
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