Approach to a 3-5/5-4 enclosure

NousAutres · #1

In the last game I played on Tygem, my opponent (Black) opened on 5-4 and on move 3 enclosed at 3-5. What is the weakness of such a high enclosure? What are the viable approach moves? I found myself largely without a convincing response. (I tried san-san, but didn't really work with it too much.)

Bill Spight · #2

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . 1 . . $$ | . . . , X . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

This approach is usual. Normally :w1:

has some support.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . 1 . . $$ | . . X , X . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

is also a common approach to this enclosure.

NousAutres · #3

Okay, the open skirt makes sense but what's the disadvantage to black playing at a or b and taking a huge chunk of corner?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . a . . . . $$ | . . . . b . 1 . . $$ | . . . , X . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

The approach at :w1:

seems like a thank-you move to me. I might have to play out some variations on my goban.

Bill Spight · #4

From an ancient game:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Honinbo Shuhaku (W) vs. Yasui Shuntetsu, 1735 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . 2 . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , O . . . . , 6 . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . O . X . . X . O . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

NousAutres · #5

Okay. If black descends at 2 to seize the corner, I think this white peep at 3 works.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . 2 . . . . $$ | . . . 3 b . 1 . . $$ | . . . a X . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

If black blocks at a, white b has a pretty good shot at reducing the corner. If black blocks at b, I think white has just enough room to try and make life inside.

EDIT:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . 2 . . . . $$ | . . . 3 4 . 1 . . $$ | . . 5 , X . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

This, in particular, is how White should be able to make life I think.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 9 2 . . . . $$ | . 7 . 3 4 . 1 . . $$ | . 6 5 , X . . . . $$ | . 8 X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Once this shape is established, White should be okay (though I'm sure I haven't hacked through every conceivable response).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ------------------ $$ | . 6 8 7 . . . . . $$ | 2 1 4 O X . . . . $$ | . O 5 O X . O . . $$ | . X O 3 X . . . . $$ | . X X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B - White LIVES! $$ ------------------ $$ | . O O X . . . . . $$ | O . O O X . . . . $$ | . O X O X . O . . $$ | . X . X X . . . . $$ | . X X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

That's one variation, but I'm pretty sure White can live however black responds.

Bill Spight · #6

And another:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Miyashige Rakuzan (W) vs. Nakano Chitoku, 1789 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . 2 . . . . . . . . . O . 3 . | $$ | . . X , . X O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X O . O . X . . X . . O . . 4 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

topazg · #7

@NousAutres:

How about this one

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . 2 . . . . $$ | . . . 3 4 . 1 . . $$ | . . 5 , X . . . . $$ | . 6 X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Bill Spight · #8

Here is a game with not one, but two such enclosures.

[sgf-full](;SZ[19]FF[3]
PW[Nakano Chitoku]
PB[Sato Shunsaku]
DT[1791-08-31 (Kansei 3 VIII 3)]
KM[0]
RE[W+6]
US[GoGoD95]
;B[cp];W[po];B[qe];W[od];B[pc];W[oc];B[pb];W[ed];B[jc];W[hc];B[pf];W[lc]
;B[qk];W[oq];B[eq];W[ce];B[cj];W[pj];B[qj];W[ph];B[ng];W[qi];B[oi];W[pi]
;B[qn];W[qo];B[ro];W[pn];B[rn];W[rp];B[rq];W[sp];B[pm];W[qm];B[rm];W[om]
;B[pl];W[ol];B[cc];W[pk];B[ql];W[of];B[og];W[pg];B[ob];W[oe];B[nc];W[me]
;B[kg];W[qd];B[rd];W[qf];B[re];W[pe];B[pq];W[qq];B[qr];W[qp];B[or];W[nq]
;B[nr];W[mq];B[mr];W[lq];B[rr];W[ki];B[li];W[lj];B[lh];W[eo];B[fp];W[dp]
;B[dq];W[co];B[bp];W[gn];B[ho];W[cl];B[cg];W[cd];B[ej];W[hn];B[ke];W[io]
;B[db];W[dc];B[bb];W[eb];B[fc];W[da];B[ca];W[cb];B[fm];W[ek];B[fk];W[el]
;B[fl];W[fj];B[ei];W[bj];B[bi];W[ck];B[dj];W[fo];B[gj];W[bc];B[ip];W[jp]
;B[dn];W[cn];B[hp];W[in];B[kj];W[jf];B[le];W[ii];B[hi];W[jj];B[hb];W[nb]
;B[mb];W[mc];B[na];W[gb];B[hd];W[gc];B[gd];W[ic];B[id];W[ih];B[mj];W[lk]
;B[ib];W[fb];B[kb];W[rj];B[rk];W[rf];B[pd];W[iq];B[hq];W[ir];B[bo];W[bn]
;B[ik];W[jk];B[il];W[jl];B[bk];W[bl];B[aj];W[cq];B[bq];W[hr];B[do];W[en]
;B[ep];W[gq];B[gp];W[fr];B[kr];W[lr];B[ls];W[kq];B[hh];W[ig];B[bf];W[cs]
;B[cr];W[es];B[bs];W[mf];B[kh];W[mg];B[kf];W[mk];B[nj];W[mh];B[mi];W[lb]
;B[la];W[nd];B[nb];W[eg];B[be];W[fd];B[nk];W[nl];B[ri];W[rh];B[sj];W[oh]
;B[nh];W[nf];B[ni];W[jr];B[dm];W[em];B[ji];W[ij];B[dg];W[hk];B[hl];W[hj]
;B[fi];W[df];B[fg];W[eh];B[dh];W[ef];B[ks];W[fh];B[je];W[ge];B[gf];W[he]
;B[gh];W[ie];B[jd];W[ha];B[ia];W[kc];B[fq];W[gr];B[ds];W[er];B[ga];W[bd]
)[/sgf-full]

NousAutres · #9

topazg wrote:

@NousAutres:

How about this one

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . 2 . . . . $$ | . . . 3 4 . 1 . . $$ | . . 5 , X . . . . $$ | . 6 X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Hmmm I'll have to think about that one over breakfast.

Bill Spight · **#10**

[sgf-full](;AP[GOWrite:2.2.21]CA[ISO8859-1]ST[2]FF[4]SZ[19]GM[1]PM[2]GN[ ]PW[ ]AB[ed][ce]PB[ ]FG[259:]
;W[gc]
;B[eb]
;W[dc]
;B[ec]
;W[cd]
;B[bd]
;W[bc]
(
;B[be]
(
;W[db]
;B[dd]
;W[ba]
;B[cc]
;W[cb]
;B[ab]
;W[ac]
;B[da]
)
(
;W[dd]
;B[de]
;W[db]
;B[cb]
(
;W[ca]
;B[ba]
;W[da]
;B[ea]
;W[cc]
;B[bb]
)
(
;W[da]
(
;B[bb]
;W[ab]
;B[cc]
)

)

)

)
(
;B[dd]
;W[cc]
;B[be]
)

)[/sgf-full]

Edit: Added a couple of variations.

Magicwand · **#11**

NousAutres wrote:

Okay. If black descends at 2 to seize the corner, I think this white peep at 3 works.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . 2 . . . . $$ | . . . 3 b . 1 . . $$ | . . . a X . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

If black blocks at a, white b has a pretty good shot at reducing the corner. If black blocks at b, I think white has just enough room to try and make life inside.

EDIT:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . 2 . . . . $$ | . . . 3 4 . 1 . . $$ | . . 5 , X . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

This, in particular, is how White should be able to make life I think.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 9 2 . . . . $$ | . 7 . 3 4 . 1 . . $$ | . 6 5 , X . . . . $$ | . 8 X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Once this shape is established, White should be okay (though I'm sure I haven't hacked through every conceivable response).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ------------------ $$ | . 6 8 7 . . . . . $$ | 2 1 4 O X . . . . $$ | . O 5 O X . O . . $$ | . X O 3 X . . . . $$ | . X X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B - White LIVES! $$ ------------------ $$ | . O O X . . . . . $$ | O . O O X . . . . $$ | . O X O X . O . . $$ | . X . X X . . . . $$ | . X X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

That's one variation, but I'm pretty sure White can live however black responds.

i dont see any life in below diag.
but i am sure there are aji.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 9 2 . . . . $$ | . 7 . 3 4 . 1 . . $$ | . 6 5 0 X . . . . $$ | . 8 X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

NousAutres · **#12**

Thanks for the input thus far. I'll keep reading into the position a bit, though I must say that the Dan-level consensus is that White's prospects are grim.

I'm guessing the primary weakness this enclosure has compared with the usual shimari from 3-4 is simply that the one-space low approach on the open skirt begs a response, where a lower enclosure would not have that weakness.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Black: "Might have to do something about that if I want this corner." $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . Q . . $$ | . . . , X . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

vs.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Black: "Psssht, whatever" $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . X . Q . . $$ | . . X , . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Does this seem right?

Dusk Eagle · **#13**

That is a large part of it. It also just has a weaker hold on the corner in general. There's more aji for white to live inside. How that aji will play out will vary a lot based on the game, but it's there. White can also just play at the position below, for instance.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . W . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , X . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Anyway, you might want to consider trying this enclosure in your games sometimes. It's certainly playable. I remember when I was around 10k I would always start off at 6-4, and though I eventually lost my love of it, I don't feel it hindered my game at all in the long run. If anything, it made things more exciting.

NousAutres · **#14**

Dusk Eagle wrote:

That is a large part of it. It also just has a weaker hold on the corner in general. There's more aji for white to live inside. How that aji will play out will vary a lot based on the game, but it's there. White can also just play at the position below, for instance.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . W . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , X . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Anyway, you might want to consider trying this enclosure in your games sometimes. It's certainly playable. I remember when I was around 10k I would always start off at 6-4, and though I eventually lost my love of it, I don't feel it hindered my game at all in the long run. If anything, it made things more exciting.

Yeah I'll be trying this in my next few games I think. No better way to figure out your weaknesses than by seeing an opponent exploit them!

Magicwand · **#15**

in general...'a' will produce better result than 'b'

you will realize that giving your opponets points are not necessary bad for you.
if you try too hard to take points away from your opponent will usually force you to an overplay and you will lose.

there are weakness in black's shape. but where? and how do you take advantage over that weakness? that will be your homework to figure them out.
it might take few years or never.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . b . . . . $$ | . . . . . . a . . $$ | . . . , X . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Dusk Eagle · **#16**

I agree with Magicwand. I think approaching from the outside is generally better. I just wanted to point out that there's other weaknesses in the shape, and it's good to have multiple weapons in your arsenal. Figuring out which one to use can sometimes be hard.

ethanb · **#17**

3-3 can live (without the black stone at 2-5), I'm pretty sure, but it'll be small. Maybe even ko, but I think it should be out-and-out life.

LovroKlc · **#18**

After the peep 5-2 point might be nice. If B extended on the left side it might lead to nice sabaki inside B moyo or to problems in corner.

SoDesuNe · **#19**

Just had a game with an even more presumptuous corner enclosure - 3-5/6-4. It completely died in the end. But my opponent had some issues with my playing I think. At least he said, I would absolutely trick him or something :o

[sgf-full]http://files.gokgs.com/games/2011/4/12/SoDesuNe-bann.sgf[/sgf-full]

Marcus · **#20**

Sounds like your opponent thought your attack was vulgar ... I've been accused of vulgar play before, usually by an opponent who didn't like the result of the game.

Approach to a 3-5/5-4 enclosure

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