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Offline oblivion
 Post subject: Joseki "disastrous mistake" question.
Post #1 Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:36 pm 
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[sgf-full]http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=1050[/sgf-full]

Attachment:
File comment: Test
Untitled.sgf [270 Bytes]
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I have come across this "Joseki" a few times and i'm not able to see a good answer when playing white.

I hope this haven't been posted yet.

So what next for white?
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Offline Solomon
 Post subject: Re: Joseki "disastrous mistake" question.
Post #2 Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:08 pm 
Gosei
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First off, always take what Kogo says with a grain of salt.

Anyways, isn't this simple sequence good enough? B can't both protect the weakness in the corner and prevent White from capturing :b5: with 'b'.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$Bc
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 7 6 8 . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . a 1 O O 5 b . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X 2 X O . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . 4 3 X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


There is still the bad aji at 'a' :
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$Bc
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . a X O O . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X O O X 2 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X O X O . . X . . . .
$$ | . 1 . O X X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
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Offline oblivion
 Post subject: Re: Joseki "disastrous mistake" question.
Post #3 Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:52 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$Bc
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . a X O O . 3 4 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X O O X 2 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X O X O 5 X , . . . .
$$ | . 1 . O X X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


You misplace one stone in the diagram, and now white need to have the Ladder breaker or i am wrong?
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Offline Solomon
 Post subject: Re: Joseki "disastrous mistake" question.
Post #4 Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:21 pm 
Gosei
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oblivion wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$Bc
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . a X O O . 3 4 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X O O X 2 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X O X O 5 X , . . . .
$$ | . 1 . O X X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


You misplace one stone in the diagram, and now white need to have the Ladder breaker or i am wrong?
Oops, yeah I misplaced the stone. It looks like it can be remedied though regardless of ladder:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$Bc
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . a X O O . 5 6 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X O O X 4 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X O X O . X , . . . .
$$ | . 1 . O X X 2 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
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Offline entropi
 Post subject: Re: Joseki "disastrous mistake" question.
Post #5 Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:57 am 
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Araban wrote:
oblivion wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$Bc
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . a X O O . 3 4 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X O O X 2 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X O X O 5 X , . . . .
$$ | . 1 . O X X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


You misplace one stone in the diagram, and now white need to have the Ladder breaker or i am wrong?
Oops, yeah I misplaced the stone. It looks like it can be remedied though regardless of ladder:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$Bc
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . a X O O . 5 6 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X O O X 4 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X O X O . X , . . . .
$$ | . 1 . O X X 2 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


But is whites position better than black now? The two white stones (d15) look a bit strange. Black can still play at the head of the two stones (g14), threatening ladder (at h16) and then capture the two white stones on the left.

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Joseki "disastrous mistake" question.
Post #6 Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:13 am 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$Bc
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . a X O O . 5 6 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X O O X 4 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X O X O . X , . . . .
$$ | . 1 . O X X 2 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 7 3 . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Certainly, I'd be interested if Black can play this :b7: well enough to put White at a local disadvantage.
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Offline mw42
 Post subject: Re: Joseki "disastrous mistake" question.
Post #7 Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:39 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$Bc
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O O . 5 6 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X O O X 4 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X O X O . X , . . . .
$$ | . 1 8 O X X 2 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 7 3 . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


I think white can play this move, no? Seems dangerous for black.


Last edited by mw42 on Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Joseki "disastrous mistake" question.
Post #8 Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:45 am 
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KGS: topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$Bc
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O O . X O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X O O X O . . . . . .
$$ | . 3 . X O X O . X , . . . .
$$ | . X 2 O X X O . . . . . . .
$$ | . 4 6 O . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 7 5 1 X . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$Bc
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O O . X O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X O O X O . . . . . .
$$ | . 3 . X O X O . X , . . . .
$$ | . X 2 O X X O . . . . . . .
$$ | . 5 6 O . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 4 1 X . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


From here?
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Offline mw42
 Post subject: Re: Joseki "disastrous mistake" question.
Post #9 Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:05 pm 
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Hmm, you're right. White doesn't seem to have a good response locally. Another sad day for the empty triangle, thanks to topazg.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$Bc
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O O . X O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X O O X O . . . . . .
$$ | . 2 . X O X O . X , . . . .
$$ | . X . O X X O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 X . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Having a look at this move next. Also it seems white can extend to :b1: before he ataris the cutting stone.
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Offline Dusk Eagle
 Post subject: Re: Joseki "disastrous mistake" question.
Post #10 Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:36 pm 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$Bc
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O O . X O . . . . . .
$$ | . 3 . X O O X O . . . . . .
$$ | . O 5 X O X O . X , . . . .
$$ | . X 1 O X X O . . . . . . .
$$ | . 4 2 O . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$Bc
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 8 X O O . X O . . . . . .
$$ | 0 9 7 X O O X O . . . . . .
$$ | . O 3 X O X O . X , . . . .
$$ | 6 X 1 O X X O . . . . . . .
$$ | . 4 2 O . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 5 X X . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Ko? If so, that's some unnice aji black has in his position. Of course, black has other moves that :b1:, but from my reading :b1: is the strongest resistance. Of course, I haven't read it out very thoroughly due to lack of time, so there's a good chance I'm missing something.

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Joseki "disastrous mistake" question.
Post #11 Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:16 pm 
Tengen
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Posts: 4511
Location: Chatteris, UK
Liked others: 1589
Was liked: 656
Rank: Nebulous
GD Posts: 918
KGS: topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$Bc
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O O . X O . . . . . .
$$ | . 7 . X O O X O . . . . . .
$$ | . O . X O X O . X , . . . .
$$ | . X 1 O X X O . . . . . . .
$$ | . 3 2 O . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 6 4 X X . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Maybe this?
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