It is currently Sun May 04, 2025 6:05 am

View unanswered posts | View active topics View unread posts | View new posts | View your posts


Board index » Improve Your Game » Study Group

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]



Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 1 of 1
  [ 11 posts ] 
  Print view Previous topic | Next topic 
Author Message
Offline oblivion
 Post subject: Joseki "disastrous mistake" question.
Post #1 Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:36 pm 
Beginner
User avatar

Posts: 5
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 0
Rank: IGS 7k
KGS: illnessang
[sgf-full]http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=1050[/sgf-full]

Attachment:
File comment: Test
Untitled.sgf [270 Bytes]
Downloaded 656 times


I have come across this "Joseki" a few times and i'm not able to see a good answer when playing white.

I hope this haven't been posted yet.

So what next for white?
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Solomon
 Post subject: Re: Joseki "disastrous mistake" question.
Post #2 Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:08 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1848
Location: Bellevue, WA
Liked others: 90
Was liked: 837
Rank: AGA 5d
KGS: Capsule 4d
Tygem: 치킨까스 5d
First off, always take what Kogo says with a grain of salt.

Anyways, isn't this simple sequence good enough? B can't both protect the weakness in the corner and prevent White from capturing :b5: with 'b'.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$Bc
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 7 6 8 . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . a 1 O O 5 b . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X 2 X O . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . 4 3 X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


There is still the bad aji at 'a' :
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$Bc
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . a X O O . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X O O X 2 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X O X O . . X . . . .
$$ | . 1 . O X X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline oblivion
 Post subject: Re: Joseki "disastrous mistake" question.
Post #3 Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:52 pm 
Beginner
User avatar

Posts: 5
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 0
Rank: IGS 7k
KGS: illnessang
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$Bc
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . a X O O . 3 4 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X O O X 2 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X O X O 5 X , . . . .
$$ | . 1 . O X X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


You misplace one stone in the diagram, and now white need to have the Ladder breaker or i am wrong?
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Solomon
 Post subject: Re: Joseki "disastrous mistake" question.
Post #4 Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:21 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1848
Location: Bellevue, WA
Liked others: 90
Was liked: 837
Rank: AGA 5d
KGS: Capsule 4d
Tygem: 치킨까스 5d
oblivion wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$Bc
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . a X O O . 3 4 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X O O X 2 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X O X O 5 X , . . . .
$$ | . 1 . O X X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


You misplace one stone in the diagram, and now white need to have the Ladder breaker or i am wrong?
Oops, yeah I misplaced the stone. It looks like it can be remedied though regardless of ladder:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$Bc
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . a X O O . 5 6 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X O O X 4 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X O X O . X , . . . .
$$ | . 1 . O X X 2 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline entropi
 Post subject: Re: Joseki "disastrous mistake" question.
Post #5 Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:57 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 493
Liked others: 80
Was liked: 71
Rank: sdk
GD Posts: 175
Araban wrote:
oblivion wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$Bc
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . a X O O . 3 4 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X O O X 2 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X O X O 5 X , . . . .
$$ | . 1 . O X X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


You misplace one stone in the diagram, and now white need to have the Ladder breaker or i am wrong?
Oops, yeah I misplaced the stone. It looks like it can be remedied though regardless of ladder:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$Bc
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . a X O O . 5 6 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X O O X 4 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X O X O . X , . . . .
$$ | . 1 . O X X 2 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


But is whites position better than black now? The two white stones (d15) look a bit strange. Black can still play at the head of the two stones (g14), threatening ladder (at h16) and then capture the two white stones on the left.

_________________
If you say no, Elwood and I will come here for breakfast, lunch, and dinner every day of the week.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Joseki "disastrous mistake" question.
Post #6 Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:13 am 
Tengen
User avatar

Posts: 4511
Location: Chatteris, UK
Liked others: 1589
Was liked: 656
Rank: Nebulous
GD Posts: 918
KGS: topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$Bc
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . a X O O . 5 6 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X O O X 4 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X O X O . X , . . . .
$$ | . 1 . O X X 2 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 7 3 . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Certainly, I'd be interested if Black can play this :b7: well enough to put White at a local disadvantage.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline mw42
 Post subject: Re: Joseki "disastrous mistake" question.
Post #7 Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:39 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 566
Liked others: 39
Was liked: 59
Rank: 1k
Universal go server handle: mw42
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$Bc
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O O . 5 6 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X O O X 4 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X O X O . X , . . . .
$$ | . 1 8 O X X 2 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 7 3 . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


I think white can play this move, no? Seems dangerous for black.


Last edited by mw42 on Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Joseki "disastrous mistake" question.
Post #8 Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:45 am 
Tengen
User avatar

Posts: 4511
Location: Chatteris, UK
Liked others: 1589
Was liked: 656
Rank: Nebulous
GD Posts: 918
KGS: topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$Bc
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O O . X O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X O O X O . . . . . .
$$ | . 3 . X O X O . X , . . . .
$$ | . X 2 O X X O . . . . . . .
$$ | . 4 6 O . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 7 5 1 X . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$Bc
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O O . X O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X O O X O . . . . . .
$$ | . 3 . X O X O . X , . . . .
$$ | . X 2 O X X O . . . . . . .
$$ | . 5 6 O . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 4 1 X . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


From here?
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline mw42
 Post subject: Re: Joseki "disastrous mistake" question.
Post #9 Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:05 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 566
Liked others: 39
Was liked: 59
Rank: 1k
Universal go server handle: mw42
Hmm, you're right. White doesn't seem to have a good response locally. Another sad day for the empty triangle, thanks to topazg.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$Bc
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O O . X O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X O O X O . . . . . .
$$ | . 2 . X O X O . X , . . . .
$$ | . X . O X X O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 X . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Having a look at this move next. Also it seems white can extend to :b1: before he ataris the cutting stone.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Dusk Eagle
 Post subject: Re: Joseki "disastrous mistake" question.
Post #10 Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:36 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1758
Liked others: 378
Was liked: 375
Rank: 4d
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$Bc
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O O . X O . . . . . .
$$ | . 3 . X O O X O . . . . . .
$$ | . O 5 X O X O . X , . . . .
$$ | . X 1 O X X O . . . . . . .
$$ | . 4 2 O . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$Bc
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 8 X O O . X O . . . . . .
$$ | 0 9 7 X O O X O . . . . . .
$$ | . O 3 X O X O . X , . . . .
$$ | 6 X 1 O X X O . . . . . . .
$$ | . 4 2 O . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 5 X X . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Ko? If so, that's some unnice aji black has in his position. Of course, black has other moves that :b1:, but from my reading :b1: is the strongest resistance. Of course, I haven't read it out very thoroughly due to lack of time, so there's a good chance I'm missing something.

_________________
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Joseki "disastrous mistake" question.
Post #11 Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:16 pm 
Tengen
User avatar

Posts: 4511
Location: Chatteris, UK
Liked others: 1589
Was liked: 656
Rank: Nebulous
GD Posts: 918
KGS: topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$Bc
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O O . X O . . . . . .
$$ | . 7 . X O O X O . . . . . .
$$ | . O . X O X O . X , . . . .
$$ | . X 1 O X X O . . . . . . .
$$ | . 3 2 O . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 6 4 X X . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Maybe this?
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 1 of 1
  [ 11 posts ] 

Board index » Improve Your Game » Study Group

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group