I don't like the
- 
exchange for White, but otherwise it looks pretty even to me. Bearing in mind I'm pretty weak in the opening, so I could be WAY off. 
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| Fuseki: aproach 4-4 and go to lower chinese. http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=7316 |
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| Author: | Alguien [ Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Fuseki: aproach 4-4 and go to lower chinese. |
I'm experimenting with this fuseki and I feel I'm getting a too good result (I do lose my fair share of games, but that's strictly because I suck) My question is: Is this result balanced? (I'm b here. Don't ask me why w plays like this. It's the most common reply to my moves by people around my rank.) |
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| Author: | Marcus [ Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: One fuseki |
I don't like the - exchange for White, but otherwise it looks pretty even to me. Bearing in mind I'm pretty weak in the opening, so I could be WAY off.
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| Author: | Alguien [ Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: One fuseki |
Marcus wrote: I don't like the - exchange for White, but otherwise it looks pretty even to me. Bearing in mind I'm pretty weak in the opening, so I could be WAY off. Where would you play ?
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| Author: | SoDesuNe [ Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fuseki: aproach 4-4 and go to lower chinese. |
Up to here it's pretty standard but from games I watched, White likes to pincer now around 'a', most likely to keep Black's framework in check. But yeah, the 11-12 exchange is strange here, I'd play the common Keima as Black. |
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| Author: | Tami [ Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: One fuseki |
Mimura (Mimura`s Fuseki Bible, reviewed in the reviews thread by me) gives a very similar position: It`s not too late for White to enter the moyo. You can come in at a, but after Black`s b you need to be careful with your shinogi. C and d are recommended options. So, your move looks quite reasonable anyway, but if Mimura is any guide, you can afford to take your own big point (2 in the diagram) before you enter the moyo. |
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| Author: | Marcus [ Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: One fuseki |
Alguien wrote: Marcus wrote: I don't like the - exchange for White, but otherwise it looks pretty even to me. Bearing in mind I'm pretty weak in the opening, so I could be WAY off. Where would you play ?I'm not quite sure where to play (opening is my weakest portion of my game). Q5 seems too close. I've been known to play any of the below (with varying results). After reading Tami's post, I'd be interested in trying a play at 'a' now ... |
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| Author: | lovelove [ Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fuseki: aproach 4-4 and go to lower chinese. |
Alguien wrote: My question is: Is this result balanced? Yes the result is even for both players (according to my knowledge and experience) |
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| Author: | lovelove [ Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: One fuseki |
Marcus wrote: Alguien wrote: Marcus wrote: I don't like the - exchange for White, but otherwise it looks pretty even to me. Bearing in mind I'm pretty weak in the opening, so I could be WAY off. Where would you play ?I'm not quite sure where to play (opening is my weakest portion of my game). Q5 seems too close. I've been known to play any of the below (with varying results). After reading Tami's post, I'd be interested in trying a play at 'a' now ...Q5 is the most common approach in this position. |
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| Author: | lovelove [ Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fuseki: aproach 4-4 and go to lower chinese. |
SoDesuNe wrote: But yeah, the 11-12 exchange is strange here, I'd play the common Keima as Black. Joseki 1 Joseki 2 |
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| Author: | Marcus [ Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fuseki: aproach 4-4 and go to lower chinese. |
Thanks, lovelove! You mentioned that Q5 was the most common approach in this situation. Do you know of any (maybe uncommon, but still playable) alternatives and their follow-ups? |
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| Author: | lovelove [ Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fuseki: aproach 4-4 and go to lower chinese. |
Marcus wrote: Thanks, lovelove! You mentioned that Q5 was the most common approach in this situation. Do you know of any (maybe uncommon, but still playable) alternatives and their follow-ups? I've done some pattern search, the result was this, |
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| Author: | Alguien [ Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fuseki: aproach 4-4 and go to lower chinese. |
lovelove wrote: Joseki 1 Joseki 2 From these joseki I reach the conclusion that the position may be even if white knows them. I think it's uneven on a lower rank because it's easier to play for black. i.e.: I get better results than these joseki and I shouldn't. |
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| Author: | lovelove [ Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fuseki: aproach 4-4 and go to lower chinese. |
Alguien wrote: lovelove wrote: Joseki 1 Joseki 2 From these joseki I reach the conclusion that the position may be even if white knows them. I think it's uneven on a lower rank because it's easier to play for black. i.e.: I get better results than these joseki and I shouldn't. Then you can start with advantages when you play this opening with black  , good!
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| Author: | Alguien [ Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fuseki: aproach 4-4 and go to lower chinese. |
lovelove wrote: Then you can start with advantages when you play this opening with black , good!I already had that. This is better. What you've given me is the knowledge of that advantage. Knowing what I shouldn't have makes it much easier to plan and analyse the developments.  (It's like knowing what should be the next move in a joseki when your opponent diverges.) |
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| Author: | lovelove [ Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fuseki: aproach 4-4 and go to lower chinese. |
Alguien wrote: It's like knowing what should be the next move in a joseki when your opponent diverges. The two josekis I posted above is all I know for the R4 response. If my opponent diverges from joseki, I just play where I want to play. This usually gives me a better result than joseki, because joseki moves make sense, non-joseki no make sense. But sometimes, I get a quite even or worse result from my opponent's non-joseki moves. There are two cases, I didn't know my opponent's move was joseki, or I just played wrong. If first case, I will study that joseki, if second case, I will find out where I made a mistake and don't do that again. |
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| Author: | Alguien [ Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fuseki: aproach 4-4 and go to lower chinese. |
lovelove wrote: But sometimes, I get a quite even or worse result from my opponent's non-joseki moves. There are two cases, I didn't know my opponent's move was joseki, or I just played wrong. If first case, I will study that joseki, if second case, I will find out where I made a mistake and don't do that again. I suffer from a third case (or a subset of the second). It's when I know that move isn't joseki and I overplay trying to punish. Unfortunately, if I'm not playing a strong opponent, sometimes the overplay isn't punished, thus I learn nothing and I'm worse at that particular nooseki than before playing that game. |
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| Author: | lovelove [ Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fuseki: aproach 4-4 and go to lower chinese. |
Alguien wrote: It's when I know that move isn't joseki and I overplay trying to punish. That you overplay means your reading is not good. Reading is go itself, so improve your reading, tsumego is best for this. |
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| Author: | Phelan [ Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: One fuseki |
Marcus wrote: I don't like the - exchange for White, but otherwise it looks pretty even to me. Bearing in mind I'm pretty weak in the opening, so I could be WAY off. Agree, 11 after 6 doesn't make much sense. Not sure what I would play instead, though. Edit: Guess I should have read the rest of the thread, my comment is pretty redundant. |
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| Author: | ez4u [ Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fuseki: aproach 4-4 and go to lower chinese. |
@OP - The order of moves that you experience is a little unusual, however, the position that is arrived at is not. The early approach at  below was developed to counter the White combination of  and  in the regular Chinese in the second diagram below. The play at and nearby points became the dominant approach by White after some thirty years experience with this fuseki. However, in the early years of the Chinese it was more or less standard for White to approach the upper right first as shown in the third diagram below.In fact White did not typically play above but rather slid into the corner, giving rise to the two following diagrams:Both of these have many more examples in GoGoD than the original reference diagram. Figuring out the difference is left as an exercise for the reader.  As shown by lovelove's earlier post, the pros overwhelmingly choose to play the high approach in the lower right next . The thematic reply is  below, solidifying Black's framework while pressuring White. The joseki that follow after  through  should be part of the standard toolkit of anyone playing the Chinese.The alternative of below is best thought of as a purely professional play, IMHO. Black wants to put as much pressure as possible on White, but in order to do so has to compromise with regard to the overall position - is a very low play and may turn out to be too conservative. The most common reply for White has been the diagonal play at , not giving an inch. However, the actual experience for White has not really been that good - is a bit heavy perhaps? Lighter replies such as "a", "b", or "c" have seemed to equalize more easily.In summary, the position that you have been encountering is not at all unusual in terms of its structure even though the sequence may be less usual. You are entering upon relatively well-understood theoretical ground. Both you and your opponents have only yourselves to blame (or to praise) for what follows. 
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fuseki: aproach 4-4 and go to lower chinese. |
ez4u wrote: @OP - The order of moves that you experience is a little unusual, however, the position that is arrived at is not. The early approach at below was developed to counter the White combination of and in the regular Chinese in the second diagram below. The play at and nearby points became the dominant approach by White after some thirty years experience with this fuseki. However, in the early years of the Chinese it was more or less standard for White to approach the upper right first as shown in the third diagram below.<snip> That early approach is my current favourite opening. There is some coverage of it in Kim Sung Rae's 21st Century New Openings vol. 3 (in Korean, which I won from him at EGC 2010, not sure if it available in English). I particularly like the running shoulder hit of j7 (black would like to cap at k8 but it is an overplay as too thin) in one of the standard continuations show below: As to why black makes the early approach, my understanding was that it was also to prevent white playing the small knight's shimari as below. Of the top 10 plays against the Chinese in GoGoD this has the lower winning percentage for black of 44.4% from 99 games (perhaps not hugely significant). The 2 space high outside approach to the 3-4 is the most popular and black wins 45.8% of 349. I was going to write more but then I got a sense of deja vu and realised I've written all this and more before in viewtopic.php?p=87874#p87874 |
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