ABCs of Attack and Defense (Beta copies)

Bantari · **#41**

Kirby wrote:

It's a two-way street.

Exactly!!!

If we are to expect the service providers to treat us with respect, we also need to treat them with respect.
Which means - when we have a criticism, we should word it appropriately rather than starting a smear campaign (generally speaking). After all - we *do* expect *them* to treat us with civility.

Quotes like 'customer is the king' and talk about 'price gauging' when you dislike a price - this is *not* two-way street.

Boidhre · **#42**

Bantari wrote:

Boidhre wrote:

My issue is this mainly. I used the term "price gouging" because, well, increasing the price dramatically when supply is short and demand is high is price gouging. There are more polite terms and more clinical business terms and I'd be lying if I said my company had never engaged in it, but we're adults I hope and such terms are pretty normal when the writer wants to cast the action more as anti-consumer than sharp business practice.

Go books are already expensive. $22 is a lot for a pretty short piece of work. Personally I compare them to chess books since these are also low volume books that require a lot of effort and a high degree of expertise to write, and the prices are reasonable in this regard. But $35 is getting into collector territory in terms of prices for a slim paperback (though it is far from expensive for a collector). This wouldn't bother me if it was a games collection or a fine treatise by a master or whatever. This isn't that though, it's a beginner book to use the broad sense or a weaker kyu player book to be more precise. This is a book that should be in the hands of keenly interested 10 kyu players, precisely the people we shouldn't be increasing prices on (and this discouraging from the game). Books aimed at this level and weaker need to be as accessible as possible if the hobby is to grow. Increasing prices on a book that's considered one of the better introductions to the topic for these players really rubs me the wrong way.

Price gouging is a good term, but I usually apply it to necessary goods, not to luxury good. If they drastically increase the price of food after hurricane destroyed your village, this is despicable. If they price a Ferrari the way they do - you still can get a Ford for cheaper. Go books to me are in the same category - nobody really *needs* a specific go book like they need food, and you can usually get similar info for cheaper or for free... its a luxury item, and if you want it you have to pay. Price gauging is a very simplistic definition with negative connotations which not always apply.

Having said the above, it does not need to be price gauging in this case. Many reasons can be true: low quality might mean higher markup to break even. Or higher storage costs. Or maybe they had to pay more to print/acquire it. I really have no clue (do you?), but there can be many other solutions than "they are just greedy."

And even then - the fact that you have to pay more for rare items is acceptable in each field, I think. This is not really price gauging in the negative sense you mean it.

PS>
Again - really don't see what the issue is here, other than the need to incessantly complain about *something*.
If the book is not worth the money to *you*, don't buy it. Simple. It might be worth the money to somebody else, and so *they* will buy it - and more power to them. If it is not worth the money to *nobody* - the price will have to be dropped eventually and everybody other than the seller will benefit.

Did you read the first post? They found a box of these books in their warehouse that they had thought they'd thrown out. Any printing or storage costs were already sunk and written off a long time ago.

Also dividing simply between necessary and luxury goods is a bit simplistic no? I mean, I wouldn't exactly throw the latest Dan Brown book and Ferrari into the same category when I'm thinking of how to price goods because the economics are completely different between the two.

Finally, incessantly complain? Please point out to me my last post criticising the go industry or pricing. Cheers.

Bantari · **#43**

Boidhre wrote:

Bantari wrote:

Boidhre wrote:

My issue is this mainly. I used the term "price gouging" because, well, increasing the price dramatically when supply is short and demand is high is price gouging. There are more polite terms and more clinical business terms and I'd be lying if I said my company had never engaged in it, but we're adults I hope and such terms are pretty normal when the writer wants to cast the action more as anti-consumer than sharp business practice.

Go books are already expensive. $22 is a lot for a pretty short piece of work. Personally I compare them to chess books since these are also low volume books that require a lot of effort and a high degree of expertise to write, and the prices are reasonable in this regard. But $35 is getting into collector territory in terms of prices for a slim paperback (though it is far from expensive for a collector). This wouldn't bother me if it was a games collection or a fine treatise by a master or whatever. This isn't that though, it's a beginner book to use the broad sense or a weaker kyu player book to be more precise. This is a book that should be in the hands of keenly interested 10 kyu players, precisely the people we shouldn't be increasing prices on (and this discouraging from the game). Books aimed at this level and weaker need to be as accessible as possible if the hobby is to grow. Increasing prices on a book that's considered one of the better introductions to the topic for these players really rubs me the wrong way.

Price gouging is a good term, but I usually apply it to necessary goods, not to luxury good. If they drastically increase the price of food after hurricane destroyed your village, this is despicable. If they price a Ferrari the way they do - you still can get a Ford for cheaper. Go books to me are in the same category - nobody really *needs* a specific go book like they need food, and you can usually get similar info for cheaper or for free... its a luxury item, and if you want it you have to pay. Price gauging is a very simplistic definition with negative connotations which not always apply.

Having said the above, it does not need to be price gauging in this case. Many reasons can be true: low quality might mean higher markup to break even. Or higher storage costs. Or maybe they had to pay more to print/acquire it. I really have no clue (do you?), but there can be many other solutions than "they are just greedy."

And even then - the fact that you have to pay more for rare items is acceptable in each field, I think. This is not really price gauging in the negative sense you mean it.

PS>
Again - really don't see what the issue is here, other than the need to incessantly complain about *something*.
If the book is not worth the money to *you*, don't buy it. Simple. It might be worth the money to somebody else, and so *they* will buy it - and more power to them. If it is not worth the money to *nobody* - the price will have to be dropped eventually and everybody other than the seller will benefit.

Did you read the first post? They found a box of these books in their warehouse that they had thought they'd thrown out. Any printing or storage costs were already sunk and written off a long time ago.

Also dividing simply between necessary and luxury goods is a bit simplistic no? I mean, I wouldn't exactly throw the latest Dan Brown book and Ferrari into the same category when I'm thinking of how to price goods because the economics are completely different between the two.

Finally, incessantly complain? Please point out to me my last post criticising the go industry or pricing. Cheers.

Heh... ok... so you don't complain, the book is crucial to you, and they have no cost associated with the book at all. I am completely wrong, and you are completely right.

Happy?
Now go on and keep complaining how it is too expensive for you, and not worth it, and they are price gauging you, bad bad greedy capitalists. If that makes you happy, I bet it will produce great results too. Good luck.

Boidhre · **#44**

Bantari wrote:

Heh... ok... so you don't complain, the book is crucial to you, and they have no cost associated with the book at all. I am completely wrong, and you are completely right.

Happy?
Now go on and keep complaining how it is too expensive for you, and not worth it, and they are price gauging you, bad bad greedy capitalists. If that makes you happy, I bet it will produce great results too. Good luck.

What?

Bonobo · **#45**

Bantari wrote:

[..]
Or - at least - this is my opinion. YMMD.

Really? That’s interesting.Or did you mean YMMV? ;-)

I find it perfectly OK to dispute the price of anything and the behaviour of anybody in a public place, especially of a company that sells something. But I also (think I) understand situation of authors with a small readership (I also know quite a few “small” artists who have difficulty to live off their arts just because in hard times that’s where people cut their expenses). (This might explain my “likes” spread on both sides of the front line :-D

)

Anyway, I think I don’t want to indulge in this here, it’s rather that I’ve gotten curious about this book. And I live in Germany … and—ZOMFG!—shipping cost is $24 … anybody else in Germany interested so we could share the (flat rate) shipping cost?

Sammelbestellung, anybody?

Herzlichen Gruß, Tom

Bantari · **#46**

Bonobo wrote:

Bantari wrote:

[..]
Or - at least - this is my opinion. YMMD.

Really? That’s interesting.Or did you mean YMMV? ;-)

I find it perfectly OK to dispute the price of anything and the behaviour of anybody in a public place, especially of a company that sells something. But I also (think I) understand situation of authors with a small readership (I also know quite a few “small” artists who have difficulty to live off their arts just because in hard times that’s where people cut their expenses). (This might explain my “likes” spread on both sides of the front line :-D

)

Anyway, I think I don’t want to indulge in this here, it’s rather that I’ve gotten curious about this book. And I live in Germany … and—ZOMFG!—shipping cost is $24 … anybody else in Germany interested so we could share the (flat rate) shipping cost?

Sammelbestellung, anybody?

Herzlichen Gruß, Tom

Disputing price is no problem, even a good thing.

My feeling in this thread, however, is not that the price is disputed, but that the motivation of the sellers is disputed, or even projected - and without much reason other than 'I don't like the price.' Also, the general notion that 'customer is the king' and 'its a business so they should do what we say' I found strange. It is possible that I red too much into that, sure, but this is what I objected to, rightly or wrongly.

If people think they did not say/indicate the things I have felt in this thread, sorry for misreading. But this is how it looks to me, and after reading some of the posts again, I am still having the same feeling.

PS>
Yes, YMMV, thanks.

kusto · **#47**

Splatted wrote:

But the reason I described their pricing as jacked up is because they have jacked up the price. They're selling an incomplete version of the book for significantly more than the full version retailed for, which is reasonable given that the demand outweighs their supply, but whichever way you look at it those are still jacked up prices.

Correction - and i quote...

Quote:

PLEASE NOTE: This is a 'beta' version we created in 2002. It lacks cover art and other pictures, but the content, as far as commentary is concerned, is identical.

- http://www.slateandshell.com/SSMR001.html

This is an early edition of the book, a book which hasn't been available for years. Not only is it not the same edition of the book that was readily available as it was at the time, it also carries with it a great story to tell other go players, grandchildren and the like. That you were able to procure a copy from the long forgotten lost box of beta books. Which waited over 10 years to see the light of day.

You have to take things like that into consideration and respect those who do think that the price is perfectly acceptable and appreciate its offering.

Slate and Shell already have extremely cheap copies of a lot of their books on SmartGo Books. So to say they are not accommodating the needs and wants of the market, and the very customers at large is plain dishonest. This isn't a regular price because this is not readily available anymore.

Boidhre · **#48**

Yeah Bantari, I'm not sure where you got that I can't afford this kind of price, I can, or that I'm anti-capitalist, I'm really, really not or that I said there were no costs associated, I said they were sunk costs which is rather different, I also don't think you're completely wrong. I pointed out that I thought some of your analysis was too simple, that's debate, argument not me stating as fact that you are wrong, and I was a bit annoyed by being called a serial complainer when really I can't remember the last time I was posting on here giving out about go writers, book sellers or publishers. The last thing I can remember was from about a year ago when I was annoyed with shipping costs from Germany to Ireland but that was DHL's pricing and had nothing to do with the seller. I may be forgetting something but I don't tend to be giving out about the go industry here, I post other pointless crap instead.

I think you misread my posts. No biggie. If I did the same to you, my apologies.

Bantari · **#49**

Boidhre wrote:

Yeah Bantari, I'm not sure where you got that I can't afford this kind of price, I can, or that I'm anti-capitalist, I'm really, really not or that I said there were no costs associated, I said they were sunk costs which is rather different, I also don't think you're completely wrong. I pointed out that I thought some of your analysis was too simple, that's debate, argument not me stating as fact that you are wrong, and I was a bit annoyed by being called a serial complainer when really I can't remember the last time I was posting on here giving out about go writers, book sellers or publishers. The last thing I can remember was from about a year ago when I was annoyed with shipping costs from Germany to Ireland but that was DHL's pricing and had nothing to do with the seller. I may be forgetting something but I don't tend to be giving out about the go industry here, I post other pointless crap instead.

I think you misread my posts. No biggie. If I did the same to you, my apologies.

Yeah... I did that, sorry.
I think I was arguing your post but looking at the overall feeling I got from many posts. Possibly a wrong feeling...

tchan001 · **#50**

Seriously, $35 is not a "price gouging" markup from $22; "price gouging" is when someone is desperate for the product and prices are raised up multiples of the original. How can $35 be considered "price gouging" when people aren't desperate for the book and the price is nowhere near what is expected from Amazon marketplace and eBay?

It's a beta book and there is only one box (JF says probably 12 books). Such books would normally be considered collector items. If you had a wrongly printed stamp, it's usually worth a lot more if and when such are available in the market.

Is the original book in demand in the market? I'd have to say yes because it's been sold out for years with only two printings. There are still many books in Yutopian's catalog which are still available at a discount which were printed many many years ago as a comparison for books which are not in demand.

Are there favorable reviews for this book? Yes there are and it's not just recommended for 10k. Read Tamsin Jone's review and note how it is useful to her when she was BGA 1k, IGS 2k.

How does it differ from other books on Attack and Defense? According to Tasmin Jones, "I'd recommend this book to anybody who wants to improve their fighting skills, not because it teaches you tesuji or clever techniques, but because it shows you how to apply them." So it is a very practical book and not just theories. Nor is it a collection of problems with just curt solutions. It's to lead you into thinking how to apply the art of attack and defense in a game like situation. Read daal's old post and you'll find that MR spends a lot of pages explaining his thoughts for a situation.

daal wrote:

In his book The ABC's of Attack and Defense, Michael Redmond uses the following diagram (just the right side, which I couldn't figure out how to post) as his first basic figure, and then spends the next 45 pages talking about it.

Is the author respected and reliable? It's Michael Redmond, a famous 9D professional, the pride of the Western go world.

Is the information for the study of go lacking compared with the final version? It's the same content minus some minor photos and drawings which do not affect the content.

Then why is there such a debate regarding the book? Is it because people who consider it expensive have an interest in the book but not at the required pricing? Sorry to tell you, but I think the books will be sold in a jiffy at $35. The markup is not even the cost of shipping it overseas. And still someone like Bonobo is openly expressing an interest in buying the book.

Bonobo wrote:

I’ve gotten curious about this book. And I live in Germany … and—ZOMFG!—shipping cost is $24 … anybody else in Germany interested so we could share the (flat rate) shipping cost?

So for a book which we know has licensing problems which prevent it from being legally reprinted or available in ebook form, this is the last chance you'll get to buy firsthand a well-liked out-of-print go book directly from the publisher. If you miss out and later on you decide you want it after all, you will need to pay Amazon marketplace and eBay prices unless some kind soul is willing to sell you their copy at a good price. And then you'll need to consider the condition of the book as well.

Anyways, even though I won't be buying a copy as I already own it, I feel thankful for S&S offering this opportunity to the community.

Boidhre · **#51**

tchan001 wrote:

Seriously, $35 is not a "price gouging" markup from $22; "price gouging" is when someone is desperate for the product and prices are raised up multiples of the original. How can $35 be considered "price gouging" when people aren't desperate for the book and the price is nowhere near what is expected from Amazon marketplace and eBay?

Price gouging has two meanings that I'm familiar with. A very narrow, generally but not always American meaning where it applies to essentials and massive price hikes during emergencies and similar (very pejorative). The other meaning is simply selling something for above the market price (negative but nowhere near as bad meaning). The latter is the more common meaning in my country.

tchan001 · **#52**

Boidhre wrote:

tchan001 wrote:

Seriously, $35 is not a "price gouging" markup from $22; "price gouging" is when someone is desperate for the product and prices are raised up multiples of the original. How can $35 be considered "price gouging" when people aren't desperate for the book and the price is nowhere near what is expected from Amazon marketplace and eBay?

Price gouging has two meanings that I'm familiar with. A very narrow, generally but not always American meaning where it applies to essentials and massive price hikes during emergencies and similar (very pejorative). The other meaning is simply selling something for above the market price (negative but nowhere near as bad meaning). The latter is the more common meaning in my country.

It's being sold below the MARKET price (Amazon Marketplace and eBay prices). It's being sold above the original publisher's recommended price because all of those books have already been sold.

Bantari · **#53**

Boidhre wrote:

tchan001 wrote:

Seriously, $35 is not a "price gouging" markup from $22; "price gouging" is when someone is desperate for the product and prices are raised up multiples of the original. How can $35 be considered "price gouging" when people aren't desperate for the book and the price is nowhere near what is expected from Amazon marketplace and eBay?

Price gouging has two meanings that I'm familiar with. A very narrow, generally but not always American meaning where it applies to essentials and massive price hikes during emergencies and similar (very pejorative). The other meaning is simply selling something for above the market price (negative but nowhere near as bad meaning). The latter is the more common meaning in my country.

Selling above market value is not 'price gauging' - it is 'selling above market value.' And it is often cutting the branch you are sitting on, in any country.
But this is not the case here - there is no 'market value', and so there is no 'gauging.' Its a almost-unique, out-of-print, collector's item - from what I understand.

In situations like this one, there is only one questions:
Are there 12 (or whatever) people out there willing to buy it for this price?
If there are - it was a good decision by S&S. If there are not - they will lower the price eventually.

Bantari · **#54**

Alright, people... upon further consideration - this is really too much fuss over such an obvious thing, even for the grumpy old me.
So - I'm out of this thread. Enjoy.

Boidhre · **#55**

tchan001 wrote:

Boidhre wrote:

tchan001 wrote:

Seriously, $35 is not a "price gouging" markup from $22; "price gouging" is when someone is desperate for the product and prices are raised up multiples of the original. How can $35 be considered "price gouging" when people aren't desperate for the book and the price is nowhere near what is expected from Amazon marketplace and eBay?

Price gouging has two meanings that I'm familiar with. A very narrow, generally but not always American meaning where it applies to essentials and massive price hikes during emergencies and similar (very pejorative). The other meaning is simply selling something for above the market price (negative but nowhere near as bad meaning). The latter is the more common meaning in my country.

It's being sold below the MARKET price (Amazon Marketplace and eBay prices). It's being sold above the original publisher's recommended price because all of those books have already been sold.

You can't just look at a handful of listings in an extremely low turnover market and say that's the market price. Sale prices are what set it not what delusional listings booksellers with no connection to go can come up with. If you want an analogy, is the market value of a house in a depressed housing market what the seller wants or what buyers are paying for that kind of property?

Boidhre · **#56**

Bantari wrote:

Boidhre wrote:

tchan001 wrote:

Seriously, $35 is not a "price gouging" markup from $22; "price gouging" is when someone is desperate for the product and prices are raised up multiples of the original. How can $35 be considered "price gouging" when people aren't desperate for the book and the price is nowhere near what is expected from Amazon marketplace and eBay?

Price gouging has two meanings that I'm familiar with. A very narrow, generally but not always American meaning where it applies to essentials and massive price hikes during emergencies and similar (very pejorative). The other meaning is simply selling something for above the market price (negative but nowhere near as bad meaning). The latter is the more common meaning in my country.

Selling above market value is not 'price gauging' - it is 'selling above market value.' And it is often cutting the branch you are sitting on, in any country.
But this is not the case here - there is no 'market value', and so there is no 'gauging.' Its a almost-unique, out-of-print, collector's item - from what I understand.

In situations like this one, there is only one questions:
Are there 12 (or whatever) people out there willing to buy it for this price?
If there are - it was a good decision by S&S. If there are not - they will lower the price eventually.

Gouging, sorry, that's been bothering me for a bit and I hate nitpicking people's spelling!

Yeah, fair point.

tchan001 · **#57**

Boidhre wrote:

You can't just look at a handful of listings in an extremely low turnover market and say that's the market price. Sale prices are what set it not what delusional listings booksellers with no connection to go can come up with. If you want an analogy, is the market value of a house in a depressed housing market what the seller wants or what buyers are paying for that kind of property?

It only takes one sale to make a market price. If a collector comes along and wants this out-of-print book and he can only get it at this price and he pays for it, it's the market price. For a high demand out-of-print book which a collector is missing from his collection, he'd willingly pay the market price to obtain it. Do you think the market price for old hardcover Ishi press books in very good condition will be cheap?
Collectors do not pay abnormal prices for a house in a depressed housing market. But if a very desirable location goes up for sale in a depressed housing market, it is likely that there may be a few more bids than for normal locations and prices would reflect that.

Bonobo · **#58**

OK, so it’s going to be a collector’s item. I’m taking the whole carton

You can buy it later from me, for, say, $70, and those who’ll buy will be happy to get it :twisted:

<jk> but I’m happy to get my copy already.

kusto · **#59**

Boidhre wrote:

Gouging, sorry, that's been bothering me for a bit and I hate nitpicking people's spelling!

Yeah, fair point.

Yet you just did nitpick and you seem to be in such agony over it. :roll:

This being right after you just used Price Gouging out of context...
Now you are being delusional about what defines market pricing.

-- Back to the thread

On a side note, inflation should also be considered which over the period from 2002 to 2013 would bring the price of the book close to $30 which isn't far behind what is being asked.

tchan001 · **#60**

Bonobo wrote:

but I’m happy to get my copy already.

$35 is now market price.

ABCs of Attack and Defense (Beta copies)

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