If I had to guess I'd say that the largest source of error comes from difficulty in accurately estimating strength of a go player (a task that is challenging even under controlled circumstances with lots of data) as opposed to misreading a spec sheet on a device (a task that should be fairly easy) (=

That's not true when judging whether stronger or weaker than oneself. We should be reasonably acurate judging within a stone or so or our own playing strength. Judicata describes himself as a 2k so when he reports that the program is weaker than himself when running on the iPhone but a few stones stronger than himself on his fairly powerful desktop/laptop then I think I am justified saying "hardware".

Hi,

I am glad people here are interested in my program.

You might like to know that a new free "entry edition" of Crazy Stone is now available on the app store.

This edition offers the possibility to play against crippled levels of Crazy Stone on the phone, which can give you an idea of what the user interface of the full version is like (but not the strength). The 9x9 option is also weak, but a bit less, so it might be interesting for a beginner.

This edition also offer the possibility, via in-app purchase, to play online against Crazy Stone running on a remote PC operated by Unbalance in Japan. You can subscribe for 1, 3 or 6 months. If the standalone version is not strong enough for you, this will be stronger (but more costly). I am sorry I don't know the details of the hardware they use, but even the slowest 1-core PC should be about 10 times more powerful than a phone.

http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/id493197735

Rémi

I'm curious what KGS kyu levels the iPad version corresponds to. I think a previous poster (2 kyu?) said he could beat it easily on level 10 (of possible 12). I know this is guesswork, but I'm curious ... what's your best guess of how iPad CrazyStone levels 1 to 12 would map onto KGS kyu ratings ?

On the 19x19 board, I (2k kgs) can beat it easily on level 10 (and I only see 10 strength settings--not 12[EDIT: see below, I found the 11-12 setting]) me playing white with no komi, so a 1-stone handicap. But I haven't played higher handicaps with it yet, so I don't know.

As I was typing, it just occurred to me that I hadn't played it on the new iPad...I wonder if the increased processing power will make any difference. I'll check and report. So it may depend on which iPad you're using.

I think in a manual game you can set it higher than 10. I don't own the app though, so I can't check.

I have an Ipad2 and I'am using Crazy Stone HD olny on level 12 ond the 19x19 board. This version was new released in november 2011. I have a E.G.D. rating about 1850, which is between 3kyu and 2kyu. I was mostly playing not very seriously, and lost about 90% of the games. I have only a chance if I play as slow as the program and concentrate only to the game. I think the game is stronger than me. I need a big advance in fuseki and early middle game to compensate my bad moves in the rest of the game.

You are correct; I didn't see this option. I'll give level 12 a try.

As mentioned above, I found the 11 & 12 strength settings, thanks to Boidhre. I was in the "Medal Challenge" mode, and didn't realize I could back up one more menu and create a "normal" game, which has the 11-12 options.

I suspect the 11 & 12 strength settings are considerably stronger than Lvl 10, but I can't say for sure, because I haven't played Lvl 10 on the new iPad with more processing power than the iPad 2. But playing casually against Crazy Stone on the new iPad, I lost one game each on Levels 11 and 12. (I had made a comeback on Lvl 11, and missing an endgame point lost me the game, I think--CS won by 1.5). In any event, I think level 12 is at least KGS 3k, and perhaps even 1d-2k. After playing more games, I'll report back (unless I was playing worse than I thought). Playing these games is sort of bittersweet--I want to win, but I would also like to have a program on my iPad that is at least slightly stronger than I am. But then I want to be stronger than it is . Neverending cycle.

My understanding about the new IPad is that the additional processing power is devoted to the retina graphics so if I'm correct then the game power would be the same. I'll be curious to learn what your experience is.

If the discussion could return to the OPs question about human-like software - I'm going to be traveling for a while with my iPad but mostly w/o wifi access, so I won't be able to play online. Given that circumstance, which Go app would be most 'human-like' on my iPad - Champion Go (Crazy Stones), Igowin HD or Smartgo Kifu?

Based on my experience, for playing go against the program, CrazyStone, igowin, and SmartGo Kifu in that order. Though SmartGo Kifu is one of my favorite programs, the other programs have been game-playing engines.

I'm no iThing expert, but I think the processing power goes beyond just handling the "retina" display--I believe there is both additional graphics processing (for games, etc.) and also just a faster chip for processing in general. But even if I'm right about this (and I may not be) I have no idea what impact that would have on the strength of these programs.

(Also, just to update my earlier post, I beat CS on Lvl 11 when I played again--a bit more seriously.)

I was surprised to, but I looked it up and a few benchmarks suggest he's right.

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Occupy Babel!

so is that server version stronger than the ipad version?
if so does anyone know by how much?

the prices dont look too bad if it is

I think you misunderstand what Rémi is saying. And while the program versions might not be the same the difference in playing strength is mainly the difference in the amount of "iron" (the hardware).

He can't tell you exactly how powerful that server version is because he doesn't know that harware (and on how much of that hardware) the program is running on. His reference to the slowest 1-core machine was to use a hardware example he could be almost certain was less than what that server was running on (we often call a machine running server programs a server, but a server is really a program providing some service, not really a machine. A machine that wa a "server" could be running several server programs in which case the full power of the machine is being divided up).

In tournaments between programs Rémi is using a machine much more powerful than the typical machine running server programs (ie" a "server") and on that it's what, 4-5 dan? Using a machine about the power of a typical server might be 2-3 dan and on a machine with the power of a current high end desktop/laptop you or I might own 1-2 dan. If you have a machine of that sort you might just buy the program and run it on your own machine. Part of the problem trying to describe this situation is the cost and availability of hardware changes rapidly. A not terribly expensive desktop of today might be as powerful or more powerful than a typical server of 2-3 years ago. A "portable workstation" class laptop of today could be that powerful too but would be expensive, ask any serious "gamer" (but you wouldn't need that high end graphics card, just the big crunch CPU).

if its not stronger than the iphone/ipad then whats the point of paying subscription to play against a remote location when its cheaper and possibly more conveiniant getting the normal copy that uses the built in processor?

i am confused

Let me simplify: it should be stronger. But for various reasons, we aren't sure how much stronger it's likely to be.

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Occupy Babel!

yeah thats what i thought. i was hoping that someone might have tried it to compare to see what the gains were thanks hyperpape

any players in the 2k-3d range willing to test it?

Hi Rémi,
thank you for the engine! I play with Adroid version on Sony Ericsson Arc, and it is a tough challenge on Level 10! (I'm 2k KGS). However, once I won at 4 stones as White: http://gokifu.com/s/10up :)
One question: is it possible to export SGF with played game to file? The program only announces "Game saved to file", but I can't find any SGF in the filesystem...

To veer slightly off-topic: Does anyone know what strength the Android version achieves on a Tegra 3? Also, does the Android version feature native tablet support? I'm tempted to buy Crazy Stone, but I'm not sure about these two points.

If your rank is "total beginner" then there should be little hesitation as for the game abilities. I have Crazy Stone on my iPad (and on my iPod Touch 2nd Gen, too) and it can crush me in many levels, with or without handicap. Of course, I don't play as focused (even if I usually don't play that focused at all) as with a real person, but anyway, it will last you several months or even years.

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Geek of all trades, master of none: the motto for my blog mostlymaths.net