Crazy Stone Software

[judicata]

My understanding about the new IPad is that the additional processing power is devoting to the retina graphics so if I'm correct then the game power would be the same. I'll be curious to learn what your experience is.

If the discussion could return to the OPs question about human-like software - I'm going to be traveling for a while with my iPad but mostly w/o wifi access, so I won't be able to play online. Given that circumstance, which Go app would be most 'human-like' on my iPad - Champion Go (Crazy Stones), Igowin HD or Smartgo Kifu?

Based on my experience, for playing go against the program, CrazyStone, igowin, and SmartGo Kifu in that order. Though SmartGo Kifu is one of my favorite programs, the other programs have been game-playing engines.

I'm no iThing expert, but I think the processing power goes beyond just handling the "retina" display--I believe there is both additional graphics processing (for games, etc.) and also just a faster chip for processing in general. But even if I'm right about this (and I may not be) I have no idea what impact that would have on the strength of these programs.

(Also, just to update my earlier post, I beat CS on Lvl 11 when I played again--a bit more seriously.)

[hyperpape]

I was surprised to, but I looked it up and a few benchmarks suggest he's right.

[kusto]

Hi,

I am glad people here are interested in my program.

You might like to know that a new free "entry edition" of Crazy Stone is now available on the app store.

This edition offers the possibility to play against crippled levels of Crazy Stone on the phone, which can give you an idea of what the user interface of the full version is like (but not the strength). The 9x9 option is also weak, but a bit less, so it might be interesting for a beginner.

This edition also offer the possibility, via in-app purchase, to play online against Crazy Stone running on a remote PC operated by Unbalance in Japan. You can subscribe for 1, 3 or 6 months. If the standalone version is not strong enough for you, this will be stronger (but more costly). I am sorry I don't know the details of the hardware they use, but even the slowest 1-core PC should be about 10 times more powerful than a phone.

http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/id493197735

Rémi

so is that server version stronger than the ipad version?
if so does anyone know by how much?

the prices dont look too bad if it is

Code: Select all

Prices for playing tickets are:
30 days ticket $2.99
90 days ticket $6.99
180 days ticket $11.99

[Mike Novack]

Hi,

If the standalone version is not strong enough for you, this will be stronger (but more costly). I am sorry I don't know the details of the hardware they use, but even the slowest 1-core PC should be about 10 times more powerful than a phone.
Rémi

so is that server version stronger than the ipad version?
if so does anyone know by how much?

I think you misunderstand what Rémi is saying. And while the program versions might not be the same the difference in playing strength is mainly the difference in the amount of "iron" (the hardware).

He can't tell you exactly how powerful that server version is because he doesn't know that harware (and on how much of that hardware) the program is running on. His reference to the slowest 1-core machine was to use a hardware example he could be almost certain was less than what that server was running on (we often call a machine running server programs a server, but a server is really a program providing some service, not really a machine. A machine that wa a "server" could be running several server programs in which case the full power of the machine is being divided up).

In tournaments between programs Rémi is using a machine much more powerful than the typical machine running server programs (ie" a "server") and on that it's what, 4-5 dan? Using a machine about the power of a typical server might be 2-3 dan and on a machine with the power of a current high end desktop/laptop you or I might own 1-2 dan. If you have a machine of that sort you might just buy the program and run it on your own machine. Part of the problem trying to describe this situation is the cost and availability of hardware changes rapidly. A not terribly expensive desktop of today might be as powerful or more powerful than a typical server of 2-3 years ago. A "portable workstation" class laptop of today could be that powerful too but would be expensive, ask any serious "gamer" (but you wouldn't need that high end graphics card, just the big crunch CPU).

[kusto]

if its not stronger than the iphone/ipad then whats the point of paying subscription to play against a remote location when its cheaper and possibly more conveiniant getting the normal copy that uses the built in processor?

i am confused

[hyperpape]

Let me simplify: it should be stronger. But for various reasons, we aren't sure how much stronger it's likely to be.

[kusto]

yeah thats what i thought. i was hoping that someone might have tried it to compare to see what the gains were thanks hyperpape

any players in the 2k-3d range willing to test it?

[WinPooh]

Hi Rémi,
thank you for the engine! I play with Adroid version on Sony Ericsson Arc, and it is a tough challenge on Level 10! (I'm 2k KGS). However, once I won at 4 stones as White: http://gokifu.com/s/10up :)
One question: is it possible to export SGF with played game to file? The program only announces "Game saved to file", but I can't find any SGF in the filesystem...

[Satorian]

To veer slightly off-topic: Does anyone know what strength the Android version achieves on a Tegra 3? Also, does the Android version feature native tablet support? I'm tempted to buy Crazy Stone, but I'm not sure about these two points.

[RBerenguel]

If your rank is "total beginner" then there should be little hesitation as for the game abilities. I have Crazy Stone on my iPad (and on my iPod Touch 2nd Gen, too) and it can crush me in many levels, with or without handicap. Of course, I don't play as focused (even if I usually don't play that focused at all) as with a real person, but anyway, it will last you several months or even years.

[Satorian]

Probably right. I wondered about the playing strength more in terms of the software possibly teaching odd habits. A 10-kyu-AI would beat me without effort, but if I tried learning from that, it probably wouldn't be as worthwhile as when a 1d-AI did it to me.

2-3 kyu should be more than enough though.

Anyone know about the tablet support?

[txcpa]

If your rank is "total beginner" then there should be little hesitation as for the game abilities. I have Crazy Stone on my iPad (and on my iPod Touch 2nd Gen, too) and it can crush me in many levels, with or without handicap. Of course, I don't play as focused (even if I usually don't play that focused at all) as with a real person, but anyway, it will last you several months or even years.

I agree with this. The bot plays very well on the iPad. I'm about 14-kyu and find the computer pretty tough to beat even on level 5 (with standard komi, no handicap). I prefer to play human opponents whether in person or online, but Crazy Stone plays very well when I don't have those options, or just want to play a bot opponent.

In particular, the AI seems to do particularly well in close combat. There have been many times that I've had fairly large three-space territory from the side, only to have the computer come in and make two eyes, despite my best efforts to stop it. It also seems to have a pretty good sense of overall strategy, knowing when to tenuki, for example, and how to balance influence vs. territory.

Of course, it does occasionally play poor moves, but that seems to make it more realistic. I actually wonder if this is done on purpose with some programs.

I played against the Crazy Stone program many times before playing online, and have actually learned a lot from it. Many people will argue that playing against human opponents is better practice, and while I agree with that, I think that you can still learn from a strong computer opponent, and Crazy Stone seems to have a reputation as one of the best AI go programs available.

[RBerenguel]

Probably right. I wondered about the playing strength more in terms of the software possibly teaching odd habits. A 10-kyu-AI would beat me without effort, but if I tried learning from that, it probably wouldn't be as worthwhile as when a 1d-AI did it to me.

2-3 kyu should be more than enough though.

Anyone know about the tablet support?

Oh, that's different. Any bot will eventually teach you bad habits if you play too much with it. Just treat it as a sparring, and play real people for the real fight

[Alberich]

I played Crazystone last night using level one. I beat it easily. But then I tried level two. OMG. Level two must be unbeatable because it literally took my breath away. No matter what I did in level two I was being killed mercilessly. Now the strange thing is...when I skipped to level seven I was able to breathe and play more to my style. Can anybody explain this? And if anyone who can beat level two consistently is clearly a Dan level player regardless of actual rating. That's my opinion.

[Mike Novack]

I played Crazystone last night using level one. I beat it easily. But then I tried level two. OMG. Level two must be unbeatable because it literally took my breath away. No matter what I did in level two I was being killed mercilessly. Now the strange thing is...when I skipped to level seven I was able to breathe and play more to my style. Can anybody explain this? And if anyone who can beat level two consistently is clearly a Dan level player regardless of actual rating. That's my opinion.

A couple of ideas.

First of all, I suspect that when running on a machine as weak as an ipad Crazy Stone might not be even 1 dan at its highest level. Rémi could probably tell us. Remember, an ipod is more than an order of magnitude weaker than the machine on which the KGS Crazy Stone bot runs on. Heck, the most powerful machine I have here is an order of magnitude weaker.

But the observation you report, that level one was weak, level two very strong, and level seven weaker than that (weaker than level two)? Long experience in the cypher mines has taught me that whenever what you observe is "impossible" then (at least) one of the things you think true isn't. This could be a bug (the level two setting is actually giving you something else) but in that case the problem would likely have been already reported. Far more likely something silly like although you think you set it for level two actually got bumped to level ten (or whatever) and you didn't notice.