Rerun of the Tromp-Taylor bet

gogameguru · **#61**

At this point (move 122) black can't be killed. White played A for 122 in the game.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc White plays to kill $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . X X . X O . . . . X O X . . . | $$ | . O X X O X X O O . . . O . X O O . . | $$ | . . O O O . . X O X . . . . X X X . . | $$ | . O . . . O . . O O O O O O O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O O X O X X X X X X . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . O X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . O X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . X X X . X . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O O 8 . O X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 0 9 . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . O . 3 O 4 . . . O . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . O X 1 2 6 5 . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . O X . X . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . 7 X O O . . O . X X X . | $$ | . . . O O X X X O X . . . . O O X O . | $$ | . . . O X a O . O O . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

continued...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm10 White goes all out, but now 'a' and 'b' are miai for black. $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . X X . X O . . . . X O X . . . | $$ | . O X X O X X O O . . . O . X O O . . | $$ | . . O O O . . X O X . . . . X X X . . | $$ | . O . . . O . . O O O O O O O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O O X O X X X X X X . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . O X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . O X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . X X X . X . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 1 O O X . O X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O 2 . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . O . O O X 3 . . O . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . O X O X X O 5 7 . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . O X . X . X 4 6 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . O X O O c . O . X X X . | $$ | . . . O O X X X W X b . . . O O X O . | $$ | . . . O X a O 8 W W . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

White's 'a' (122 in the game) was a subtle move. After that this sequence is broken because white can just answer 'b' with 'c' and connect the marked stones under without problems. It's quite a good move because it takes quite a lot of profit in sente at this stage in the game.

I don't know what Tromp read out here and why he didn't reinforce this group. It would've been a good idea to reinforce earlier too, but black could've also played the invasion in the bottom left better and not ended up with a weak group here.

badukJr · **#62**

In game 3 Tromp resigned in 65 moves.

Zen leads 2-1.

Pippen · **#63**

Here we have game 3 which Tromp resigned. He did again play nirensei as White. I agree with him till his move 28, but move 30 at R11 was a mistake for me (he should have played Q10). It led to black building up naturally a big center moyo that had too much influence in comparison with what White got with R11 and follow up moves. What do u think? IMO if you play nirensei you need to play fast and make sure you don't get behind too much in moyos and influence otherwise you will stand the difficult task to go against superior influence while at the same time your corners can be invaded, so that you can become quickly empty handed. Basically with nirensei you are saying: I want to spread out my stones and don't care for territory rather for influence resp. destroying influence of my opponent. Tromp never does that. He constantly ends up in Fuseki with Zen having superior influence while he has just very little territory (because of the 4-4 cornerstones) and inferior influence. Therefore he's forced to take risks Zen can take advantage of.

Bill Spight · **#64**

I have played around with some variations at move 122 in game 2.

SpongeBob · **#65**

badukJr wrote:

In game 3 Tromp resigned in 65 moves.

Zen leads 2-1.

End of humanity is near ... the Cylons are taking over!!

imabuddha · **#66**

SpongeBob wrote:

End of humanity is near ... the Cylons are taking over!!

Fine by me, as long as I can have a #8. :razz:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_Eig ... _Galactica)

badukJr · **#67**

Magicwand wrote:

i think i can say for sure that for next 20 years...computer will not beat me.
computer go is improving rapidly but...it gets harder to improve one stone at this point.

Well, one just beat a EGF 3d 3-1 with long time controls..

Are you offering up another bet?

Joaz Banbeck · **#68**

Zen just won 3-1

daniel_the_smith · **#69**

Wow, that was what I voted for in the poll, so I guess I'm happy?

quantumf · **#70**

daniel_the_smith wrote:

Wow, that was what I voted for in the poll, so I guess I'm happy?

Yeah, me too...hooray? :-?

I was struck by how much poorer Tromp played in the last few games compared to how well he played in the first one. I can only assume that he was actually based in Europe, and having to play games that started at 2am. Certainly I wouldn't be able to manage that more than once.

illluck · **#71**

I am not really knowledgeable in zen's records, but from what I've seen human players often do much better the first few games for some reason (e.g. start off winning after giving 2 stones and then losing to zen so much that he drops from 7d to 5d and win about 50% even games).

Joaz Banbeck · **#72**

quantumf wrote:

... I can only assume that he was actually based in Europe, and having to play games that started at 2am. Certainly I wouldn't be able to manage that more than once.

I seem to recall a comment among the kibbitzers that he was curently in New York.

Phelan · **#73**

I remember the same, Joaz.

yoyoma · **#74**

Mr. Tromp, I have some money I would like to invest for 14 years. Can you be my adviser?

Back in 1997 he correctly predicted to the year when computers would overtake him!

palapiku · **#75**

Interesting that most people voted 3-1. I did too. Way to go, us

gogameguru · **#76**

quantumf wrote:

I was struck by how much poorer Tromp played in the last few games compared to how well he played in the first one. I can only assume that he was actually based in Europe, and having to play games that started at 2am. Certainly I wouldn't be able to manage that more than once.

In the first game Zen had a big lead and squandered it with random tenukis. Tromp was starting the games in New York at 8pm each night. Before the match I'd thought that multiple games would favor a human, because they can learn the computer's weaknesses. I guess there's also fatigue to consider though. The last game in particular was on a Monday night and we can assume John has a job. He may have been tired.

Regardless, John fought hard and put on a good show. Overall Zen's performance was very impressive.

hyperpape · **#77**

I hope we can see more of these competitions. Maybe the bots will be ready for Magicwand soon...

Uberdude · **#78**

Yup, Zen was leading the first game from the opening. I got the feeling in later games that Tromp was trying to out-Zen Zen with a "whatever you can do to me, I can do better" attitude, e.g. h9 in game 4, and then n6 cutting back the same way Zen cut him at h8, but an awful tenuki. Or his k10 in game 2 struck me as a mistake as it seemed to pretend g14 was a pass, k13 seemed better and when Zen played k14 it seemed to agree that letting it separate was a bad choice. Then Tromp's cut at k13 seemed to be inspired by Zen's cut at h11 in game 1 which worked out well for Zen, but his k13 was poor. So he learnt from his past games and got worse :scratch:

. Zen is good at handling centre influence fights and making weird central moves work, unpractised humans are not.

I was also struck by Zen's ability at leaning attacks, for example in the first game dying in the lower left corner looked kinda stupid, but it seems the plan was to get kikashi to set up the kill on the group above which I'm still not convinced didn't work. You do sometimes see this kind of thing in pro games, but you have to be soooooo confident in your reading to commit such a huge local loss. Or m9 in game 2, trying to cut the escape route of the lower left group in sente was nice.

I don't think we need to make excuses for Tromp for losing, Zen is strong. I, for one, welcome our new computer overlords! :bow:

Magicwand · **#79**

does that mean i can not give Zen 3 stone handy?

illluck · **#80**

It probably does. In fact, it can probably give you 2 stones :p

Rerun of the Tromp-Taylor bet

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