It is currently Thu May 01, 2025 7:09 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 162 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Re: 42. Joaz Banbeck (1d) vs. Araban (5d)
Post #141 Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 9:21 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1596
Liked others: 891
Was liked: 533
Rank: AGA 2k Fox 3d
GD Posts: 61
KGS: dfan
Joaz might be behind, but I don't think I would ever resign a game in which the bottom 14 lines of the board look like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: 42. Joaz Banbeck (1d) vs. Araban (5d)
Post #142 Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 10:12 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 257
Location: Singapore
Liked others: 13
Was liked: 30
Rank: Dan player
Joaz, a large part of the discussion is about whether it is better for white to play at :wc: or a. The answer is not obvious, and there are dissenting opinions. However, there aren't really in-depth discussions, as most of the posts are one-liners. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 26
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X O X . . . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . W O a O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
My homepages: http://senseis.xmp.net/?Unkx80 and http://yeefan.sg/.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: 42. Joaz Banbeck (1d) vs. Araban (5d)
Post #143 Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 2:10 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1848
Location: Bellevue, WA
Liked others: 90
Was liked: 837
Rank: AGA 5d
KGS: Capsule 4d
Tygem: 치킨까스 5d
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 28
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X O X X . . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O W O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 28
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X O X X . . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

If I were to take tenuki from here, Black would end up with a piece of the pie that's just a bit too big for my taste. It's also not a trivial matter of whether I lose one or two stones; for instance it also plays a part in the effectiveness of Black getting to play K17.

One may wonder if W playing N16 is feasible instead of my last move. I think if I were behind this game, it might be something I'd consider but it's a very reckless move. Actually Black needs only to pierce once at M15 to give me two cutting points, then retreat by connecting from underneath (not with N18, but with a monkey jump on the first line)...the sequence is very cobra-like.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: 42. Joaz Banbeck (1d) vs. Araban (5d)
Post #144 Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 2:20 pm 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 5546
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 1104
Was liked: 1457
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 29
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X O X X B . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I was expecting white to go the other way:

White wins this variation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Move 29
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X 5 . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X O X X 1 . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O 2 O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 4 . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


So I'd have to monkey jump to connect like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Move 29
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O b X . O . 0 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X O X X 1 . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O 2 O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . a 3 5 . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . 7 8 . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


:b6: is a ladder breaker for the cut at 'a', :w7: sets up a geta.
The white aji is tricky, though, especially if black plays 'b' sometime. Then both cuts have to be defended.

_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: 42. Joaz Banbeck (1d) vs. Araban (5d)
Post #145 Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 3:17 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1848
Location: Bellevue, WA
Liked others: 90
Was liked: 837
Rank: AGA 5d
KGS: Capsule 4d
Tygem: 치킨까스 5d
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 30
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X O X X X . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think this is the optimal way to use the thickness I got from the top exchange. Protecting the corner with C15 is slack and doesn't take into account the global situation as my focus is gaining control of the center. If this is accomplished, aside from the point benefits it also reduces the value of not just his 5-4, but his entire bottom formation as well - it's not a territorial formation but an influential one, but if the opponent controls the center then it clearly becomes difficult to utilize it efficiently and he will be forced to change his plans accordingly.

I wonder how he will handle his D13 stone, it's unreasonable to sack it because it's in such an important area of the board as the left-center area will become too big. If he dives into the 3-3, because I am strong in this area and D13 itself is far away, I will probably go for the kill. At the very least I can seal it in properly (the presence of the H18 group makes all the difference in the world), which will only guarantee D13's death and give me large territory on the left. Perhaps he will show some sabaki techniques here with his stone.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: 42. Joaz Banbeck (1d) vs. Araban (5d)
Post #146 Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 3:24 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 2060
Location: Texas
Liked others: 546
Was liked: 173
Rank: KGS 3k
GD Posts: 264
KGS: Chew
Araban:
I understand why you chose this area of the board. May I ask why you chose that specific location, instead of high, or wider, or anything else in the local area?

_________________
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].


This post by Chew Terr was liked by: k43r
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: 42. Joaz Banbeck (1d) vs. Araban (5d)
Post #147 Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 4:31 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1758
Liked others: 378
Was liked: 375
Rank: 4d
Araban:
Could you show a few moves showing how you might go for the kill if Joaz goes to the 3-3 point?

_________________
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: 42. Joaz Banbeck (1d) vs. Araban (5d)
Post #148 Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 2:34 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 257
Location: Singapore
Liked others: 13
Was liked: 30
Rank: Dan player
Dusk Eagle wrote:
Araban:
Could you show a few moves showing how you might go for the kill if Joaz goes to the 3-3 point?


For Dusk Eagle, but not Araban:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 30
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . . . . . O X . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 4 1 3 . . . O O . X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 2 O . . . . X O X X X . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I didn't read, but I anticipate this kind of sequence. The idea is to push the black group into the white wall.

Black can also choose to live small, but then white would gain at black's expense.

_________________
My homepages: http://senseis.xmp.net/?Unkx80 and http://yeefan.sg/.


This post by unkx80 was liked by: Chew Terr
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: 42. Joaz Banbeck (1d) vs. Araban (5d)
Post #149 Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 1:56 am 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 5546
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 1104
Was liked: 1457
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 31
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B O . . . . X O X X X . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm operating in the shadow of the newly created white wall. So I don't want to make a solid target that he can focus on. The natural C14, like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 31
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O . . . . X O X X X . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . 5 . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . 4 . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...gets me in a running fight too close to his wall.

I'm going to treat D13 lightly for right now. If he wants it, he can have it, and I'll go for the corner. I think that he will find it to be like eating celery: the effort expended is not worth the calories gained.

I expect that he will be prudent and go for this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 3 . . . O O . X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B O . . . . X O X X X . X , O . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . O O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . 6 . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . O 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]


...whereupon once he commits to letting me have the beginnings of eye space I can risk committing myself to a fixed group with :b4: and then neutralize much of his influence with :b6:. My gut feel is that my group can survive the most vigorous attack. He will get a modest extension along the lower left side and I can bring my hoshi stone into the game by poking it with C6 or D6.

_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: 42. Joaz Banbeck (1d) vs. Araban (5d)
Post #150 Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 6:02 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1848
Location: Bellevue, WA
Liked others: 90
Was liked: 837
Rank: AGA 5d
KGS: Capsule 4d
Tygem: 치킨까스 5d
Image

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 32
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . O O . X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . X O X X X . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Hey everyone, back from the dead. For those who haven't looked in the SC2 thread where I usually posted throughout the summer, I got into a tablesaw accident a few days ago that lacerated my left index finger. Now before this incident I was busy with school and SC2. School's fine as I write with my right hand, but now I find myself unable to play SC2 seriously so lately I've been kind of getting back into Go. I never really did abandon the game though, as I'm still in the L19 tournament and even played a few casual games here and there. But since the incident I've been playing more (under an anon account) and taking the game more seriously for the time being. Anyways, I was reminded of the Malkovich games that I postponed and figured now would be a great time to resume (and finish, even after my hand is healed and I go back to the world of Aiur). Since I made my last move in my other Malkovich game with Tabemasu and he doesn't come on as much here, I'll talk with him to let him know I'll be active again in the thread so he can play his next move.

I suppose the biggest debate one has to come across here is whether W should curl on top of or beneath C16. I feel curling on top of the stone is better because it gives me better control (+ territory) to the corner and D11 keeps his group in check. Furthermore, it makes D13 less effective as I don't have to worry about the crosscut at D15 that I'd have to be concerned with from curling beneath C16.

Regardless of B's followup, the general idea that I need to follow is to keep the group on the left under as much pressure as possible by utilizing my thickness at the center and making maximum profit. And for those wondering why I didn't use the term "hane", it's because I didn't want to use "haneing" (good God) or adjust my sentence structure to force myself to use "hane" instead.

I should throw out there that my WPM decreased dramatically since my accident, so expect brief messages until after my hand heals (shouldn't be too long; <1 month)...you have no idea how long it took me to type this much :(.

40/60

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: 42. Joaz Banbeck (1d) vs. Araban (5d)
Post #151 Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 7:15 pm 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 761
Liked others: 152
Was liked: 204
Rank: the k-word
:o


IT'S ALIVE!

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: 42. Joaz Banbeck (1d) vs. Araban (5d)
Post #152 Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 9:35 pm 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 5546
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 1104
Was liked: 1457
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
palapiku wrote:
:o


IT'S ALIVE!


It's hibernating. After the routine 6-month extension from the IRS, Oct 15th is now the defacto tax due date for a lot of us. I'm probably playing too much already with the prokovich and big brother malkovich. This will have to wait until after the 15th. Then one of my employees goes on vacation, so maybe after the 20th...

_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: 42. Joaz Banbeck (1d) vs. Araban (5d)
Post #153 Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 9:47 pm 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 5546
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 1104
Was liked: 1457
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
Araban wrote:
I got into a tablesaw accident a few days ago that [url=http://imgur.com/H6WtW.png]...


In the photo, those look like... gloves? You were using gloves with a tables saw???

_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: 42. Joaz Banbeck (1d) vs. Araban (5d)
Post #154 Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:05 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 2060
Location: Texas
Liked others: 546
Was liked: 173
Rank: KGS 3k
GD Posts: 264
KGS: Chew
Araban, with the state of your typing hand, would you be better off doing video commentary again?

_________________
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: 42. Joaz Banbeck (1d) vs. Araban (5d)
Post #155 Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:29 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1848
Location: Bellevue, WA
Liked others: 90
Was liked: 837
Rank: AGA 5d
KGS: Capsule 4d
Tygem: 치킨까스 5d
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Araban wrote:
I got into a tablesaw accident a few days ago that [url=http://imgur.com/H6WtW.png]...


In the photo, those look like... gloves? You were using gloves with a tables saw???
Yes. I wore them because my hands were cold, they prevented splinters, and also helped with grip. Those are enough benefits for me to wear them despite the risks.
Chew Terr wrote:
Araban, with the state of your typing hand, would you be better off doing video commentary again?
I might consider that. Though I seem to be improving quite rapidly with 8-finger typing (I just tested myself on typingtest.com and got 80 wpm :P). I even played a few team games of SC2 and did okay.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: 42. Joaz Banbeck (1d) vs. Araban (5d)
Post #156 Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:42 pm 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 5546
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 1104
Was liked: 1457
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
This makes me think that I should crosscut. :mrgreen:

_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: 42. Joaz Banbeck (1d) vs. Araban (5d) Move 33
Post #157 Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 10:52 pm 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 5546
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 1104
Was liked: 1457
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 33
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O O . X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . X O X X X . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . B . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The taxes are done, the employee is back, so I'm back to something resembling a normal life.

With the previous move I offered to trade him the D13 stone for the corner, if he wanted to play at 'a'. He didn't go for it, preferring the safer line of retreating into the corner. So I have the possibilities of connecting at 'a' myself ( which earlier I favored but now looks too heavy ) or the crosscut.
I'll probably only play 'a' myself if it looks like the only way to make life there.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . O O . X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . X O X X X . X , O . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . O O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


A little digression for future referrence: if I do crosscut, the only reasonable play by white is to extend westward. There are lots of ways that things can go wrong if I am allowed to chase his star point stone southward. Below is just a sample variation illustrating the bad aji.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 8 . . . O X . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 6 . . O O . X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O 3 . . . X O X X X . X , O . . |
$$ | . . 9 4 5 . . . . O O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


That means that I always can get to B17 first, like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 3 O 1 . . . O O . X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O 2 . . . X O X X X . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |[/go]


As shown, that is not particularly good, for he can continue like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . O X . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 3 O 1 6 . . O O . X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 X O 2 . . . X O X X X . X , O . . |
$$ | . a 4 . . . . . . O O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . b X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |[/go]


...where 'a' and 'b' are miai, I'm locked in the corner, and he has more than enough compensation in the center.

What I would like is a way to play B17 such that it does not get locked in. All that this requires is another stone nearby, like the marked stone below:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc One possible variation
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 3 O 1 . . . O O . X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 X O 2 . . . X O X X X . X , O . . |
$$ | . 6 4 7 . . . . . O O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . B . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Another possibility
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 3 O 1 . . . O O . X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 X O 2 . . . X O X X X . X , O . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . O O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 . 6 . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . B . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]


So, if I can get in one move like B13, I have good prospects in the upper left, and much of his central/left strength gets nullified when I have a living group there that is not locked in.
Thus I am going to leave the corner aji alone for now, and see what happens on the left side. (End of digression.)

I'm going to play the natural leaning move, pushing the play away from his strength up top and toward my hoshi stone in the lower left.

I expect that it will continue like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 33
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O O . X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . X O X X X . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . 3 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


...where white does not have a really efficient continuation for his left side group. The simple solid extension is answered like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 33
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O O . X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . X O X X X . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . 3 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Or, back a move, he can try this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 33
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O O . X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . X O X X X . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . 2 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


...but 3 works too well with my high stones to the south.

_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: 42. Joaz Banbeck (1d) vs. Araban (5d)
Post #158 Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:43 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1848
Location: Bellevue, WA
Liked others: 90
Was liked: 837
Rank: AGA 5d
KGS: Capsule 4d
Tygem: 치킨까스 5d
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 34
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O O . X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . X O X X X . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 34
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O O . X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . X O X X X . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Well one thing that's obvious that I'd like to get out of the way is that playing elsewhere is not feasible. Doing so would allow B to press my stone down with 'a' and gain thickness that nullifies by thickness near the top.

So how to support my C11 stone while trying to utilize my K15 thickness was the big question really. I think trying to support the stone by extending along the side with a move around 'b' is too timid and still allows Black to play D10 regardless.

By playing my move, I am trying to drive him up the wall while at the same time providing support for C11. I don't need to kill, just gain enough profit on the side (and sente would be nice).

40/60

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: 42. Joaz Banbeck (1d) vs. Araban (5d)
Post #159 Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:49 pm 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 5546
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 1104
Was liked: 1457
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 35
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O O . X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . X O X X X . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O B . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is really a no-brainer. I cannot let him have F11 or F12. Even without considering his strength up top, letting him get ahead in a pushing fight is bad for me. And when his strength up top is taken into account, letting him push me toward that strength is is absolutely out of the question.
I, of course, want to push him toward my star point stone.

He can't get F11 because I just played there. Because of my threat of D11, I'm 99% certain that he will play E10. My next move will have to ensure that he does not get F12. I'll probably play as shown below because at first glance it is the prettiest shape, although 'a' and 'b' are possibilities.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 37
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O O . X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . X O X X X . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . b . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . X a 3 . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 2 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Overall, I have reservations about the the wisdom of white's latest move. As a theoretical issue, it does not seem ideal to force me to strengthen my group in the face of his northern wall.
Indeed, as a practical issue, if I become too strong, I can start attacking it. The diagram below shows what can happen after some hypothetical exchange of stones in the mid-left.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . 3 . O O 2 X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . 1 . X O X X X . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X X . X X . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O O X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: 42. Joaz Banbeck (1d) vs. Araban (5d)
Post #160 Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:52 pm 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 5546
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 1104
Was liked: 1457
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
Trigger for Araban:
If white 36 E10, then black 37 F14


For everybody but Araban:
The goal here is to cover my weak spot at E12 and simultneously try to steal sente by threatening to invade around E16 or F16 or G16 or even F17, maybe in conjunction with a crosscut and/or K17. Sente is very important now, for the first person to get a move around B6/B7 is doing very well on that side.

_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 162 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group