42. Joaz Banbeck (1d) vs. Araban (5d)

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illluck
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Re: 42. Joaz Banbeck (1d) vs. Araban (5d)

Post by illluck »

I prefer text/diagrams over videos as I find that they take much less time to read.
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Re: 42. Joaz Banbeck (1d) vs. Araban (5d)

Post by Violence »

It's just that Joaz gets sidetracked alot.

He'll read, but he doesn't have a good goal in mind for the reading.

He will develop sequences based on the wrong direction, valuing the wrong stones, and misunderstanding who gets the better of it.

This is a classic example. "I will threaten to connect under, then do something."

This is based on a premise that your opponent gives a damn, which, as Solch demonstrated, is clearly untrue.

Before you start reading, you have to have a clear understanding of what you want, and what is valuable. Otherwise, your hard effort will be for naught.
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Re: 42. Joaz Banbeck (1d) vs. Araban (5d)

Post by SpongeBob »

As to the question of wether a or b: in a KGS game I would have played b, ready for a fight. When looking longer at it, I also feel that Araban's move is stronger, as it keeps the white stones connected.

Another thing regarding Joaz's play: I do not want to sound foolish giving advice to a much stronger player ... but: I get the feeling Joaz should play some high handicap games (5 or 6 stones) with white. I teaches you to let go of your stones because they are small and it teaches you to appreciate influence, because sometimes it is all you have. Anybody thinks that makes sense?
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Re: 42. Joaz Banbeck (1d) vs. Araban (5d)

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 27
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X O X B . . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Arrrggg! I've ben playing really disconected go recently and I don't know why. I suspect that is what the unusually large number of comments is about. You guys are probably speculating "Has Joaz gone around the bend?" or making bets on how soon I will resign.

Well, other than my go game, I'm fine. Oddly enough, I'm playing the best vollyball of my life, playing in tournaments - with players who are mostly young enough to be my children - and winning by lopsided margins.

Will I resign? It is close. I'm down about 20 points with little to show for it. But I'm going to hang in there a while, if for no other reason than to monitor my own thought processes so that I can figure out what I am doing wrong.

BTW any advice on that subject would be appreciated. ( Speculation on cognitive process, not go moves. ) If it does not relate directly to the game, I'd prefer to see it unhidden or in a PM - particularly in a PM if it is strongly critical.

Anyway, back to the game. I'm in for the proverbial penny, so I have to push through, else I have nothing for my troubles.
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Re: 42. Joaz Banbeck (1d) vs. Araban (5d)

Post by Aphelion »

To Joaz:
I'm about 7 stones weaker than you, so anything I say might be totally worthess. But watching this game and your previous games against Sol, sometimes I feel like you are overanalyzing and possibly convincing yourself to play moves you might not in faster settings. Do you feel this is the case? Sometimes in Malkovich games I feel like I have all the right "reasons" on paper to play a move, but there's just that faint sense of unease about an "unnatural looking" move, that often turns out to be correct intuition. I'm starting to feel recently and especially after seeing Magicwand play that this kind of intuition is a major part of strength, and you might be losing it if you overthink the situation in these unlimited time settings.

Edit: Also, there's a specific reason for these comments that has nothing to do with your play. Don't worry about them :)
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Re: 42. Joaz Banbeck (1d) vs. Araban (5d)

Post by dfan »

Joaz might be behind, but I don't think I would ever resign a game in which the bottom 14 lines of the board look like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: 42. Joaz Banbeck (1d) vs. Araban (5d)

Post by unkx80 »

Joaz, a large part of the discussion is about whether it is better for white to play at :wc: or a. The answer is not obvious, and there are dissenting opinions. However, there aren't really in-depth discussions, as most of the posts are one-liners. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 26
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X O X . . . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . W O a O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: 42. Joaz Banbeck (1d) vs. Araban (5d)

Post by Solomon »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 28
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X O X X . . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O W O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 28
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X O X X . . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

If I were to take tenuki from here, Black would end up with a piece of the pie that's just a bit too big for my taste. It's also not a trivial matter of whether I lose one or two stones; for instance it also plays a part in the effectiveness of Black getting to play K17.

One may wonder if W playing N16 is feasible instead of my last move. I think if I were behind this game, it might be something I'd consider but it's a very reckless move. Actually Black needs only to pierce once at M15 to give me two cutting points, then retreat by connecting from underneath (not with N18, but with a monkey jump on the first line)...the sequence is very cobra-like.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: 42. Joaz Banbeck (1d) vs. Araban (5d)

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 29
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X O X X B . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I was expecting white to go the other way:

White wins this variation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Move 29
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X 5 . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X O X X 1 . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O 2 O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 4 . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


So I'd have to monkey jump to connect like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Move 29
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O b X . O . 0 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X O X X 1 . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O 2 O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . a 3 5 . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . 7 8 . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


:b6: is a ladder breaker for the cut at 'a', :w7: sets up a geta.
The white aji is tricky, though, especially if black plays 'b' sometime. Then both cuts have to be defended.
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Solomon
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Re: 42. Joaz Banbeck (1d) vs. Araban (5d)

Post by Solomon »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 30
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X O X X X . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think this is the optimal way to use the thickness I got from the top exchange. Protecting the corner with C15 is slack and doesn't take into account the global situation as my focus is gaining control of the center. If this is accomplished, aside from the point benefits it also reduces the value of not just his 5-4, but his entire bottom formation as well - it's not a territorial formation but an influential one, but if the opponent controls the center then it clearly becomes difficult to utilize it efficiently and he will be forced to change his plans accordingly.

I wonder how he will handle his D13 stone, it's unreasonable to sack it because it's in such an important area of the board as the left-center area will become too big. If he dives into the 3-3, because I am strong in this area and D13 itself is far away, I will probably go for the kill. At the very least I can seal it in properly (the presence of the H18 group makes all the difference in the world), which will only guarantee D13's death and give me large territory on the left. Perhaps he will show some sabaki techniques here with his stone.
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Re: 42. Joaz Banbeck (1d) vs. Araban (5d)

Post by Chew Terr »

Araban:
I understand why you chose this area of the board. May I ask why you chose that specific location, instead of high, or wider, or anything else in the local area?
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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Re: 42. Joaz Banbeck (1d) vs. Araban (5d)

Post by Dusk Eagle »

Araban:
Could you show a few moves showing how you might go for the kill if Joaz goes to the 3-3 point?
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Re: 42. Joaz Banbeck (1d) vs. Araban (5d)

Post by unkx80 »

Dusk Eagle wrote:Araban:
Could you show a few moves showing how you might go for the kill if Joaz goes to the 3-3 point?


For Dusk Eagle, but not Araban:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 30
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . . . . . O X . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 4 1 3 . . . O O . X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 2 O . . . . X O X X X . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I didn't read, but I anticipate this kind of sequence. The idea is to push the black group into the white wall.

Black can also choose to live small, but then white would gain at black's expense.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: 42. Joaz Banbeck (1d) vs. Araban (5d)

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 31
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B O . . . . X O X X X . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm operating in the shadow of the newly created white wall. So I don't want to make a solid target that he can focus on. The natural C14, like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 31
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . 2 O . . . . X O X X X . X , O . . |
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$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . 5 . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . 4 . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...gets me in a running fight too close to his wall.

I'm going to treat D13 lightly for right now. If he wants it, he can have it, and I'll go for the corner. I think that he will find it to be like eating celery: the effort expended is not worth the calories gained.

I expect that he will be prudent and go for this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
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$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 3 . . . O O . X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B O . . . . X O X X X . X , O . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . O O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . 6 . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . O 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]


...whereupon once he commits to letting me have the beginnings of eye space I can risk committing myself to a fixed group with :b4: and then neutralize much of his influence with :b6:. My gut feel is that my group can survive the most vigorous attack. He will get a modest extension along the lower left side and I can bring my hoshi stone into the game by poking it with C6 or D6.
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
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Solomon
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Re: 42. Joaz Banbeck (1d) vs. Araban (5d)

Post by Solomon »

Image

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 32
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . O O . X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . X O X X X . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Hey everyone, back from the dead. For those who haven't looked in the SC2 thread where I usually posted throughout the summer, I got into a tablesaw accident a few days ago that lacerated my left index finger. Now before this incident I was busy with school and SC2. School's fine as I write with my right hand, but now I find myself unable to play SC2 seriously so lately I've been kind of getting back into Go. I never really did abandon the game though, as I'm still in the L19 tournament and even played a few casual games here and there. But since the incident I've been playing more (under an anon account) and taking the game more seriously for the time being. Anyways, I was reminded of the Malkovich games that I postponed and figured now would be a great time to resume (and finish, even after my hand is healed and I go back to the world of Aiur). Since I made my last move in my other Malkovich game with Tabemasu and he doesn't come on as much here, I'll talk with him to let him know I'll be active again in the thread so he can play his next move.

I suppose the biggest debate one has to come across here is whether W should curl on top of or beneath C16. I feel curling on top of the stone is better because it gives me better control (+ territory) to the corner and D11 keeps his group in check. Furthermore, it makes D13 less effective as I don't have to worry about the crosscut at D15 that I'd have to be concerned with from curling beneath C16.

Regardless of B's followup, the general idea that I need to follow is to keep the group on the left under as much pressure as possible by utilizing my thickness at the center and making maximum profit. And for those wondering why I didn't use the term "hane", it's because I didn't want to use "haneing" (good God) or adjust my sentence structure to force myself to use "hane" instead.

I should throw out there that my WPM decreased dramatically since my accident, so expect brief messages until after my hand heals (shouldn't be too long; <1 month)...you have no idea how long it took me to type this much :(.

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