It is currently Sun May 11, 2025 11:53 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 21 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: hoshizora's journal
Post #1 Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:50 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 26
Liked others: 3
Was liked: 2
Rank: unknown
KGS: hoshizora
Right now, I'm playing Go as one of a few hobbies, rather than with serious competitive goals.

Nevertheless, I'm having a lot of fun learning and slowly improving.

I believe I need to develop in the following areas:
* Reflecting more when playing, trying to apply what I've learned;
* Reflecting more during and after playing, trying to come up with lessons I can use in the future;
* Getting into the habit of estimating points during a game;
* Enjoying the process of playing and learning rather than being ego-attached to winning or losing.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Teaching Game on KGS
Post #2 Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 9:01 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 26
Liked others: 3
Was liked: 2
Rank: unknown
KGS: hoshizora
Jeff23 very kindly agreed to a teaching game (I timed out partway through), and went through the game with me afterward.

There are a few points where I slacken an attack prematurely or play passively when I could have been aggressive, as well as introduce weaknesses into my structure (move 27); I suspect this means I need to practise more reading ahead and shape fundamentals.

[sgf-full]http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=643[/sgf-full]


Attachments:
20110108Jeff23-hoshizora.sgf [12.26 KiB]
Downloaded 803 times
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: hoshizora's journal
Post #3 Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 8:45 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 26
Liked others: 3
Was liked: 2
Rank: unknown
KGS: hoshizora
This is an AI game; the major lesson for me here is not to waste sente on vulgar moves that strengthen the opponent and give up the initiative. I threw a lot of points away doing that.

I should look up the joseki for corner approaches too; my lousy opening managed to lose me two corners!
[sgf-full]http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=644[/sgf-full]


Attachments:
20110104GNUGo-BlackAnnotated.sgf [5.17 KiB]
Downloaded 809 times
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: hoshizora's journal
Post #4 Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:06 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1744
Liked others: 704
Was liked: 288
KGS: greendemon
Tygem: greendemon
DGS: smaragdaemon
OGS: emeraldemon
With a 44 stone the corner isn't yours: there are many 44 joseki where the first player "loses" the corner in exchange for a thick wall. In your particular situation I prefer D6 to E5 on move 4, but that may just be my feeling. For move 20, it needs to be O16 or O17, as I'm sure you realize now :)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: hoshizora's journal
Post #5 Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:05 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 26
Liked others: 3
Was liked: 2
Rank: unknown
KGS: hoshizora
Yeah, to my consternation I repeatedly "lost" 4-4 corners to 3-3 invasions before a little book/article reading revealed that this was expected and frequently advantageous (as you describe). This was completely unexpected for me, and a head-exploding moment!

Move 21 was a bit of a shock but it's funny in retrospect! :lol:

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: hoshizora's journal
Post #6 Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:10 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 26
Liked others: 3
Was liked: 2
Rank: unknown
KGS: hoshizora
I played another game on KGS, this time with a mysterious silent player who only plays Free games.
[sgf-full]http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=670&sid=957143a048f5594c4f419df9fd16dec3[/sgf-full]

I've been trying to get my head around the idea of "thickness"; in this game I got some early on but didn't protect myself from some nasty invasions. I'm not sure what the correct approach would have been; my guess is playing on the East star-point (and other star points) rather than continuing the wall.

By contrast White was compressed down the bottom and I didn't know how to invade that area, so he ended up with the entire South while splitting the rest of the board with me. Special mention for a couple of bamboo joins which seemed to serve me well during the game, and move 121 which involved more reading than I'm used to.


Attachments:
20110127dwalters-hoshizora.sgf [4.71 KiB]
Downloaded 751 times
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: hoshizora's journal
Post #7 Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:55 am 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2659
Liked others: 310
Was liked: 631
Rank: kgs 6k
Two thoughts.

(i) You should try to ask yourself, before you start a sequence, "do I play the last stone in this sequence, or does my opponent?" And if the answer is "I have to play the last stone, or I gain nothing," then you need to ask "is this area worth more points than anywhere else on the board?" If the answer is "no", then play somewhere else.

In the early stages of learning Go there's a lot of bad pattern recognition. You see a clever way to make three points - awesome, I've done this before, let's play there! But there's a huge difference between making three points and then playing somewhere else too, on the one hand, and making three points and then letting your opponent play somewhere else, on the other. The first is priceless, the second is fairly trivial.

(ii) If you had killed white's upper left group, you would have won.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ --------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | X X X X X X .
$$ | O O X O O O .
$$ | . O O C . O .
$$ | O O X O O O .
$$ | X X X X X X .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]


Start looking for situations like this where Black can give White a false eye if he moves first. Very frequently moves like this can set up big captures, either by destroying eyes or by eating up liberties. In this case you would also have been threatening to capture W, forcing him to respond if he wanted to save his group.

I hope that helps!

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: hoshizora's journal
Post #8 Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:57 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 26
Liked others: 3
Was liked: 2
Rank: unknown
KGS: hoshizora
Thanks for the tips jts. :)

I think what you wrote about bad pattern recognition is very true; I've read (what feels like) a lot of Go theory, but have trouble putting it into practice. I have to spend more time on each move and look at the whole board more. And get into the habbit of assessing whether moves are sente/gote.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: hoshizora's journal
Post #9 Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:28 pm 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2659
Liked others: 310
Was liked: 631
Rank: kgs 6k
hoshizora wrote:
Thanks for the tips jts. :)

I think what you wrote about bad pattern recognition is very true; I've read (what feels like) a lot of Go theory, but have trouble putting it into practice. I have to spend more time on each move and look at the whole board more. And get into the habbit of assessing whether moves are sente/gote.

Yes! I just looked at how long you were spending on each move.

1. 5 s
2. 4 s
3. 2 s
4. 8 s
5. 4 s
6. 11 s
7. 15 s
8. 3 s
9. 2 s
10. 4 s

:shock:

In this game you had 30 s byo-yomi, so you could have spent twenty minutes on your first ten moves and then played the rest of the game slower than you did. There's nothing wrong with playing blitz games, of course, but try this as an experiment: use up all of your main time before move 100. In a 20 minute game, that's about 24 s per move.

(As another experiment, you might spend 10 minutes thinking about the first 20 moves of this game and see if you can see anything that you would have done differently if you had spent 10 minutes thinking about it.)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: hoshizora's journal
Post #10 Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:54 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 26
Liked others: 3
Was liked: 2
Rank: unknown
KGS: hoshizora
This is just for fun, but I tried Thomas Frech's approach against GnuGo and lost - 4 times (3 with a two stone handicap...)! I suppose the unthinking intuition of a dan-level is still pretty strong...

2 stone handicap.

[sgf-full]http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=674[/sgf-full]

No handicap, starting with Tengen.

[sgf-full]http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=675[/sgf-full]


Attachments:
20110129_1_Formula.sgf [1.86 KiB]
Downloaded 686 times
20110129_0_Formula.sgf [1.93 KiB]
Downloaded 695 times
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: hoshizora's journal
Post #11 Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 7:37 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 26
Liked others: 3
Was liked: 2
Rank: unknown
KGS: hoshizora
This was a frustrating game against AI; I thought I was going well until White started living and my groups started dying.

I think this came down to two major mistakes - attempting to pincer White in the South-East without enclosing the corner, and not playing against White moves in what I thought was an enclosed region in the South-West. This is partly because I'm experimenting with more aggressive moves as a result of recent reading. In this case they backfired - the road is long...

[sgf-full]http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=690[/sgf-full]


Attachments:
20110206_1.sgf [4.2 KiB]
Downloaded 690 times
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: hoshizora's journal
Post #12 Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:23 am 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2659
Liked others: 310
Was liked: 631
Rank: kgs 6k
Some thoughts on the beginning of your game.

(As always, take with a grain of salt... I'm quite weak myself.)

First, you've probably been told this already, but it's better to play human opponents than AI opponents. You're more likely to pick up weird habits from imitating the AI (which does smart things which are impossible to copy, and dumb things which are easy to copy), and equally weird habits from exploiting its weaknesses, and besides, when you play humans you can adjust your handicap to your strength more easily.

16: My instinct is that both H3 and P2 are bigger. If you play P2 and white moves elsewhere, this move becomes very big. H3 solidifies the profit you got from attacking the white stones.

18: This move is so-so for the same reason that the kick is frequently so-so... it lets W make an ideal extension. I think if you pincer here, white has few good options. I suspect the kick is better, though, because it normally forces F4 and then gives you breathing room to take C6.

24: This is okay, but don't think of it as an invasion. Think of it as a placement; you're putting stones inside white's group to ruin his eye space. Notice that you have miai of J1 and G1 to connect these stones out.

28: Yes, you normally don't ignore a contact play.

30: Too late. Not sure what this accomplishes at this point.

32: Not bad. You should note that, since W has ignored your play, a move at G2 becomes very big.

34: No, this is good. Frequently in this situation B would invade at 3-3; comparatively, this invasion is good.

42: This is double bad. First, F17 is really, really dead, so you don't want to play another stone so close to it; that's throwing good money after bad. Second, you normally play around B14 or C14 here, to get more of the corner. Without that extra move, B is dead. Third, W will often reply to a move around C14, so you may have lost sente for nothing.

44: Neither of your options is ideal. Do some tewari analysis. If W plays Q2 on move 7, where do you reply? If W plays Q2 on move 43, where do you reply?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: hoshizora's journal
Post #13 Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:19 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 26
Liked others: 3
Was liked: 2
Rank: unknown
KGS: hoshizora
Thanks again for your advice, jts. :)

Though logistically more difficult, human play is definitely superior; I hadn't thought of the point that the AI may use techniques a human can't really copy.

Your tips about move 16 make a lot of sense: I was attacking without banking territory, and leaving big vulnerabilities ripe for invasion/placement (which is what happened in the South-West and South East).

24: Hadn't thought of using the monkey jump to escape rather than invade!

I was quite frustrated after the game because I lost without understanding why, but after review I realise my mistakes concern principles that I'm familiar with (respond to contact plays, bank profit, pay attention to sente/gote), so I feel I've got a better handle on where things went wrong.

Hmmm... I think some perfectionist tendencies are getting in the way: reading books instead of playing, trying to understand all the concepts at once, not wanting to play against real people until I'm "good enough"...

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: hoshizora's journal
Post #14 Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:13 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 26
Liked others: 3
Was liked: 2
Rank: unknown
KGS: hoshizora
I like to think that my guesstimated rating of 25-kyu isn't generous enough, but you wouldn't know looking at the following KGS 6-stone handicap game.

[sgf-full]http://lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=703[/sgf-full]

I messed up a ladder! I really important one! :(

By the end of this game, I was mentally exhausted - not what I expected when I first took up Go, never intending to play it seriously... :-?


Attachments:
20110212aszoiuy-hoshizora.sgf [2.96 KiB]
Downloaded 630 times
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: hoshizora's journal
Post #15 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:43 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 26
Liked others: 3
Was liked: 2
Rank: unknown
KGS: hoshizora
Here's my first "proper" (non-AI, not my friend who barely knows how to play) "win" against on KGS - my opponent resigned after move 84 but I'm not sure I had a certain victory. (Maybe he thought he did!)

[sgf-full]http://lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=733[/sgf-full]

Aside from walking into a ladder at the beginning, and questionable moves at 30 and 54, I didn't notice making any big mistakes; hopefully someone can prove me wrong and give me a thing or two to think about!


Attachments:
20110219hoshizora-FiniteFail.sgf [4.12 KiB]
Downloaded 640 times
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: hoshizora's journal
Post #16 Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:06 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 26
Liked others: 3
Was liked: 2
Rank: unknown
KGS: hoshizora
A pleasant game from KGS; I lost by 40 due to a toothpaste attack on move 94 that I had trouble handling.

[sgf-full]http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=747[/sgf-full]


Attachments:
20110222shinimari-hoshizora.sgf [4.24 KiB]
Downloaded 605 times
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: hoshizora's journal
Post #17 Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:25 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 26
Liked others: 3
Was liked: 2
Rank: unknown
KGS: hoshizora
I've played a couple of face-to-face games with a friend who was around amateur shodan several years back, at a 9-stone handicap and finally won a game!

I've noticed that I:
* am not totally sure when my defences are secure, particularly near the corners
* leave lots of cutting points
* make small mistakes that lose me a few points here and there

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: hoshizora's journal
Post #18 Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:43 pm 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2659
Liked others: 310
Was liked: 631
Rank: kgs 6k
To 1: can you give an example?

To 2: connect!

To 3: read very carefully.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: hoshizora's journal
Post #19 Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:28 pm 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 397
Location: Netherlands
Liked others: 102
Was liked: 66
Rank: KGS 1d
KGS: stalkor
hoshizora wrote:
I've played a couple of face-to-face games with a friend who was around amateur shodan several years back, at a 9-stone handicap and finally won a game!

I've noticed that I:
* am not totally sure when my defences are secure, particularly near the corners
* leave lots of cutting points
* make small mistakes that lose me a few points here and there


you know that the first and second point are connected to eachother right?

because you are not sure when you are properly defended (aka you didnt read out if move X was secure enough) you leave either a hole in your defence (like a moyo) or you get cut.

try reading more into your position rather then reading in the others position. i would also like to point out that getting correct shape is really important in this area.

gratz on your 1st place in the ASR league btw, carry on the good work:)

_________________
admin of the ASR league and KGS admin

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: hoshizora's journal
Post #20 Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 7:12 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 26
Liked others: 3
Was liked: 2
Rank: unknown
KGS: hoshizora
jts wrote:
To 1: can you give an example?

To 2: connect!

To 3: read very carefully.


I can't quite remember the corner-taking move though I think it was something like the following (below).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


A game a few weeks back turned due to a bad "connection" on my part.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ | . . . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . W . X X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


On reflection upon point 2, I seem to end up with lots of paired weaknesses that can be attacked with a single move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X M X . . M X M . . . X M W . . . |
$$ | . . . W M . . X W X . . O O X M . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . O . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |[/go]


stalkor wrote:
you know that the first and second point are connected to eachother right?

because you are not sure when you are properly defended (aka you didnt read out if move X was secure enough) you leave either a hole in your defence (like a moyo) or you get cut.

try reading more into your position rather then reading in the others position. i would also like to point out that getting correct shape is really important in this area.


Thanks for the tips; I tend to assume connections that "look" solid rather than reading through the possible attacks. (And of course I won't pick up the correct "look" unless I do...)

stalkor wrote:
gratz on your 1st place in the ASR league btw, carry on the good work:)


That must be for someone else! :lol:

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 21 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group