Invading the three-space jump from the 3rd to 4th line

jts · Post by **jts** » Thu May 24, 2012 7:40 am

I have a question.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Dia. 1: :b5: on the left side $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 2 . a . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

I think we're all familiar with joseki, and know that "a" is a possible follow up for B later on.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Dia. 2: :b5: on the left side, :w6: elsewhere $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 2 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . 8 9 4 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

This is the continuation that I'm most familiar with - it's easy for me to remember because that wedge looks so odd, but is remarkably tricky for W to deal with.

However, in a game today I saw another continuation that looked thin for W... I thought W could only play this way when he was quite strong on both sides. But it actually proved impossible for B (well, for me!

) to gain much, other than two weak groups.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Dia. 3: :b5: on the left side, :w6: elsewhere $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 2 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . 8 9 . 4 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

I ended up not being able to attack W on either side, and had to do an embarrassing amount of damage to my corner while I scrambled to live on the second line. Maybe this was just a result of a few bad reads or instincts on my part. Or, on the other hand, maybe I don't understand

in Dia. 2,

in Dia. 3, or even when B can hope to profits from

. Any advice?

The game in question is under the hidden if you want to see how I got myself in such a mess.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Thu May 24, 2012 8:12 am

The kick at C15 seems inconsistent with trying to make C12 live.

jts · Post by **jts** » Thu May 24, 2012 8:34 am

Thanks, Joaz. You mean because of C8? I actually wasn't entirely sure whether C12 could live, with or without the forcing move first. I think C12 was just a mistake, given that C8 was already there.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Thu May 24, 2012 10:09 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . 1 . 3 4 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . 2 . 5 O . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

mitsun · Post by **mitsun** » Thu May 24, 2012 10:21 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 2 . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . 6 7 . 4 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

is a strong response to the invasion. Usually this is not playable without extra support around

. However B should always consider this possibility before invading, since dying here is generally not good. This sequence is rarely seen in pro games, since

if is an overplay, a pro will choose a different response
if kills, a pro will not have invaded in the first place

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Thu May 24, 2012 10:46 am

This is a standard sequence given by "Attack and Defense".

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc B11 at 'a' $$ --------------------------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ . . . . 6 5 7 . . 9 . a . . . . . . . $$ . . . . 8 O . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . $$ . . . . . . 2 3 . O . . . . . . . . . $$ . . . . . . . 4 0 . . . . . . . . . . $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

I think this result would not have been bad for you in the game. Taking away every territory White had on the right side in exchange for some corner territory.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Thu May 24, 2012 11:03 am

A thought.

jts · Post by **jts** » Thu May 24, 2012 2:54 pm

Thanks to everyone! These are all great ideas. I think SoDesuNe's sequence was most nearly what I was looking for - a simple way to live without flopping all over the board with half-dead groups. Bill's K17 idea was something I was thinking about in the game, but was too chicken to go through with. Next time, more kiai! But the alternatives to the invasion are also interesting. I tend to rotely go through the "big points" on the board, and I really need to do more whole-board reading and evaluating.

The basic point that I wasn't acknowledging is that there's no way for B to stabilize his stones efficently and cut white - he has to choose one or the other. (Well, I guess in SoDesuNe's variation there's a g15 cut left for later, but that seems speculative.)

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Invading the three-space jump from the 3rd to 4th line

Invading the three-space jump from the 3rd to 4th line

Re: Invading the three-space jump from the 3rd to 4th line

Re: Invading the three-space jump from the 3rd to 4th line

Re: Invading the three-space jump from the 3rd to 4th line

Re: Invading the three-space jump from the 3rd to 4th line

Re: Invading the three-space jump from the 3rd to 4th line

Re: Invading the three-space jump from the 3rd to 4th line

Re: Invading the three-space jump from the 3rd to 4th line