How about all of them, when you refer to the domestic majors. Think how long it took Rui Naiwei to be accepted as a pro in Korea. Neither the Chinese or Koreans are going to accept Yi Se-tol or Gu Li getting a free entry into their domestic events.

Best wishes.

_________________
No aji, keshi, kifu or kikashi has been harmed in the compiling of this post.
http://www.gogod.co.uk

Joppon, you would know that this is wrong if you would bother to look at the actual tables of the preliminaries. Those who show up in preliminaries from Japan are mostly the very young (and often the better among them) players while the current top players on average only go when seeded to the main tournament. You simply don't see names like Iyama Yuta, Yuki Satoshi, Cho U, Hane Naoki in those preliminaries - that doesn't mean that they would automatically qualify if they go, surely not, but sadly they aren't even trying - but Lee Changho, Chen Yaoye, Kong Jie any many other top players from Korea and China go and play preliminaries when they aren't seeded. It is really hard to miss that fact if you look at a preliminary table once in a while.

That was my point, referring to whoever it was who said that the Japanese pros don't play in international tournaments because they have their own tournaments "locked up". Apparently the Chinese pros have the Chinese tournaments locked up and the Koreans have the Korean tournaments locked up. So whether the Japanese tournaments are closed to outsiders is not so significant.

I don't think that's necessarily true, because the prizes are much higher for Japanese domestic tournaments. However, I do think it's more beneficial for the Japanese pros this way because it seems like the issue is in not having enough pro aspirants rather than not enough competition.

That's an interesting point - especially given that in both Korea and China there seems to be a real problem with washed up ex-insei. Has anyone done a pipeline-analysis of the international go scene over time?

Another issue that often gets brought up in these sorts of discussions (further confounding the issue) is the time controls on domestic vs. international events. If you compare time controls of top domestic Chinese, Korean, and Japanese events with the international event time controls you find that one of those things is not like the other...

tapir wrote:


Very young Japanese, are still Japanese. The statement, I think, still holds.

Getting back to the topic. I'm definately pleased to see this development (minus Cho Chikun). And I truly hope to see the Japanese resurgence but using their own styles since I really like the idea of individuals making their way to the top under their own will, their own understanding.

I just did a quick count of the preliminaries for the Most recent LG Cup: (http://igokisen.web.fc2.com/wr/lg.html) It looks like 241 from Korea, 55 from China, 44 from Japan, and 13 from Taiwan.

Although no Japanese players qualified, two made it to the last round: Murakawa Daisuke 7d and Yu Zhenqi (Yo Seiki) 3d. Also Hatanaka Hoshinobu 3d managed to Kim Jiseok 8d, currently ranked #6 in Korea.

But the real story of that tournament has to be China's performance: in spite of being only about 16% of the entrants, Chinese players won 12 of the 16 qualifying spots!

There are some other interesting things about the Japanese performance in the preliminaries for the LG Cup. Takemiya Yoko 5p defeated Jeong Soohyun 9p. Takemiya Yoko is the son of "Cosmic Style" Takemiya 9p and Jeong was the teacher of Janice Kim 3p. Oda Junya 6p(jp) also made it to the semifinals of the LG Cup prelims, defeating three Korean players, losing in the semifinal round to a Chinese player.

The younger members of the Japanese team all played in the preliminaries for the LG Cup and Murakawa made it to the semifinal round.

A number of well-known players were eliminated from the LG Cup in the preliminaries e.g. Kr: Kim Jiseok, Kim In, Cho Hunhyun, Yoo Changhyuk, Seo Bongsoo, Park Jieun, Park Yeounghun; Jp: Cho Sonjin, Oya Koichi, Cn: Qiu Jun, Chen Yaoye. When so many players of this caliber get eliminated it could happen to anybody

Just a random comment: my guess is that Cho Chikun will be serving a kind of mentor role for the young players. Cho is, of course, also very well-known in China. I, for one, am very happy that he is taking time away from (presumably far more financially profitable) domestic tournaments for helping younger Japanese players develop.

Not sure if this applies to the LG, but the much higher number of Korean vs Chinese (and others) doesn't necessarily tell the whole story. There might be preliminary selection tournaments in China so that 55 could be the pick of the crop of a larger population at earlier stages. That was certainly the case for some international tournament I can't remember the name of. Nevertheless 12/16 was an excellent achievement!

Well, one shouldn't read too much into results of one preliminary. Probably events like the last BC card cup where the 2 japanese qualified by the preliminary lasted longer than the seeded players will encourage more players to show up internationally. Incidentally these two are both in the team as they are Murakawa Daisuke and Ida Atsushi.

joppon's post contains many good points. I admit that my assumptions are gross simplifications. The case may be made that the Nihon Ki-in's system is flawed. Perhaps we can even say that Japan has fallen behind China and Korea. However, I often read that the difference is huge. Japanese success (or lack thereof) in international tournament has a definite endogenous component that we cannot properly measure.

I will address two specific points related to the quoted portions above.

POINT 1

The top Japanese players may not participate in preliminary tournaments as much as the top Korean and Chinese players. It may possibly be the case that nearly all Japanese players who participate in the preliminary tournaments have not even sniffed a domestic title. Let's look at the participation in the recent BC Card Cup.

• In main tournament: Yamashita Keigo(9d), Iyama Yuta(9d), Murakawa Daisuke(7d), Ida Atsushi(3d)
• In preliminary tournament: Oya Koichi(9d), Fujisawa Rina(1d), Miyamoto Chiharu(1d), Komatsu Hideki(9d), Ichiriki Ryo(2d), Kikkawa Hajime(1d), Yun Chunho(1d), Shuto Shun(7d), Okuma Yuto(1d), Murakami Akihide(2d), Tsuruta Kazushi(1d), Murakawa Daisuke(7d), Ohashi Hirofumi(5d), Takemiya Yoko(5d), O Keiko(1d), Numadate Sakiya(1d), Kanazawa Hideo(7d), Seto Taiki(7d), Shida Tatsuya(5d), Ida Atsushi(3d), Sato Yohei(1d), Yamada Shinji(6d), Ha Youngil(5d), Rin Kanketsu(7d), Anzai Nobuaki(6d), Hon Seisen(1d), Tsuneishi Takashi(1d)

Yamashita and Iyama were seeded and did not participate in the preliminary tournament. They are also the only Japanese players in the above list who are legitimate contenders for domestic titles in Japan. Murakawa might be a promising player, but he couldn't get into the Meijin and Kisei leagues and has not sniffed a major title yet. He is in Iyama's generation of players.

Contrast this to the Korean players. Lee Changho, Park Yeonghun, Lee Younggu, Heo Yeongho, Baek Hongsuk...all participated in the preliminary tournament. These are all title holders, recent title challengers, or top rankers, i.e., legitimate title contenders.

Contrast this to the Chinese players. Zhou Heyang, Hu Yaoyu, Piao Wenyao, Xie He, Chen Yaoye, Qiu Jun, Tan Xiao...all participated in the preliminary tournament. These are all title holders, recent title challengers, or top rankers, i.e., legitimate contenders.

At least in this one recent tournament, it seems that top Korean and Chinese players found it worthwhile to participate in the preliminary tournament, but the top Japanese players did not.

Where were Cho U, Takao Shinji, Hane Naoki, Sakai Hideyuki, Yuki Satoshi? Not even Kono Rin or Yamada Kimio? Presumably studying up on the game records of the 10 or so competitors they need to beat in Japan. The runner-up to the Gosei tournament (a "lesser" major title) gets $28000. The Meijin runner-up gets $133000.

POINT 2

This is related to the first point. I was talking about the top ranked players in Japan in regards to their participation in international tournaments, not necessarily the young players. In fact, it looks like many low-dan Japanese players were in the preliminary tournament of the BC Card Cup, so it may even seem that young players (and also weaker players) who want to play more games (because they love go/want training) are actually the ones who are seeking out the international tournaments.

And...?

Well, it's hard to draw a definite conclusion from any of this. However, it does make us wonder if the inferiority of the Japanese go players has been somewhat exaggerated. Who knows... How much weaker would they be if they were able to frequently face the Chinese/Koreans under international tournament time settings in serious games?

The competition that you face (and how seriously you take it) makes a huge difference. In his autobiography, Lee Sedol credited his participation in the Chinese leagues as an important factor in his improvement as a player. One of his objections to participating the Korean Baduk League early on was that he would frequently be playing low-ranked players for low stakes under fast time settings, all of which would be inferior to playing against top-ranked Chinese players under international tournament time settings in the Chinese leagues.

Cheers, go friends. I will log-off this discussion, but it was interesting. No one likes flooding, not even the one doing the flooding. I think I typed way too much.

http://weiqi.sports.tom.com/2012-06-06/ ... 59798.html
Results for June 6th B League 1st Round

The Japanese team lost 4-0

7 云南金圣担保围棋队　4比0　 中日友好队 8
　　王垚　　　　胜　赵治勋
　　李元荣(韩)　胜　村川大介
　　周振宇　　　胜　伊田笃史
　　方昊　　　　胜　一力辽

The only record available seems to be the Cho Chikun game. Enjoy my sgf version with English info.
Watch old Cho fall for the Two Stone Corner Squeeze in the bottom left corner.

_________________
http://tchan001.wordpress.com
A blog on Asian go books, go sightings, and interesting tidbits
Go is such a beautiful game.

http://weiqi.sports.tom.com/2012-06-07/ ... 01154.html
Results for June 7th B League 2nd Round

The Japanese team lost 3-1
Only Japanese player to win was Ida Atsushi 伊田笃史, 3p
　　中日友好队 1比3 德州长河永和围棋俱乐部
　　赵治勋 　负 白洪淅(韩)
　　村川大介 负 陶忻
　　伊田笃史 胜 杨冬
　　一力辽 　负 陈浩

The only record available again seems to be the Cho Chikun game. Enjoy my sgf version with English info.


To answer Cassandra's question below, I went back and looked at the final comment in the Tom.com kifu which says the following:
棋局细微之时，赵治勋在最后一次读秒的催促声中出现错觉，未找劫材便直接提劫，被判着手无效(停一手)并罚一子，赵治勋随即投子。
In the final moments of the game, Cho Chikun made a mistaken play at the last second countdown of the clock. He took back a ko without first playing a ko threat. The play was judged as invalid (stopped a hand) and Cho was deducted a point. Cho Chikun resigned right then.
(maybe someone has a better translation but this is the best I can do at this time)

_________________
http://tchan001.wordpress.com
A blog on Asian go books, go sightings, and interesting tidbits
Go is such a beautiful game.

Why did Black resign ? He seems to be ahead by a very small margin.

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)

@Cassandra: nice count!

Apparently the reason was that Cho had an illusion in byoyomi and took the ko without finding a threat first XD

The penalty was to pass and give up 2 points, which is unbearable for high level games, so Cho resigned.

Baek remarked that without that illusion Cho would have won by 1.5 points.

Info taken from http://tieba.baidu.com/p/1642959492

Absolutely tragic.

But not a first for my all-time favorite player. Maybe he should have a new nick-name: Cho 'No-Threat' Chikun!

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21