Interesting review, but can you search/replace all of Takeo with Takao.



Can you give details for this?


Interesting because the Japanese title I would translate as Fundamental and not "Basic".

(Note that I have not read Takao's dictionary but have read only the available German or English samples.)

The English joseki literature can be classified into these kinds of books (or book series):

1) Tactical selections meant as a taster for beginners of learning some tactical joseki variations if they do not dare to extract a dictionary's simple variations for that purpose. Typical example: 38 Basic Joseki.

2) Tactical selections for advanced kyu or dan players, specialised for a particular kind of josekis. Typical example: Jungsuk in Our Time specialises in somewhat complicated almost-modern Korean joseki novelties.

3) Tactical dictionaries. There are the Ishida and the Takao. The Ishida has the relative advantages of professional game examples and greater variety of outdated variations. The Takao has the relative advantages of less outdated and more (which fraction?) modern variations and of on average more simple variations (but the samples could be misleading). As far as I have heard, every intermediate to strong dan having read the Ishida does not wish to read the Takao because the more modern variations do not outweigh the smaller variety of outdated variations (which were still useful for acquiring a more detailed tactical knowledge). For kyu players not having read the Ishida, the supposed greater simplicity of the Takao may be a relative advantage. I, when I was a kyu player, would have missed the game examples though. So a kyu player seeking a first dictionary is actually now given a hard choice if all he wants is a tactical dictionary; hardly any kyu player would afford to buy both series.

4) Tactical problem book: Players considering the effort of learning all moves of all josekis of a detailed dictionary too hard have the alternative of learning a supposedly representative selection of most interesting joseki moves by solving problems. Most detailed example: Get Strong at Joseki. In my opinion, such books cannot replace a dictionary's study but maybe they are a taster for players wishing to prepare themselves for the greater plan.

5) A specialised topic of go theory taught by examples. Typical example: Whole Board Thinking in Joseki has early opening game examples / problems for only the topic of strategic choices. Useful but too specialised and without general go theory.

6) A selective, specialised taster on general go theory. Typical example: The joseki chapter of Fundamental Principles of Go. Useful (especially because it is generally applicable) but too specialised and only a taster.

7) General go theory books not about josekis but applicable also to josekis. Typical example: Strategic Concepts of Go, which is very useful but teaches only and only a few strategic concepts.

8) Joseki dictionary of strategic choices, tactical choices and values of territory and influence. Only example: Joseki Vol. 3 Dictionary, chapter 4 (164 pages). Compared to the Ishida, it also offers professional game examples. Compared to the Takao, it also offers modern josekis. Compared to both, it has about the same authority (professional experience or relying on professional databases), it has much less tactical failure variations but it has strategic choices and values of territory and influence. Fewer tactical variations are an advantage for a kyu learner but a disadvantage for a dan player wishing a detailed reference. Strategic choices and evaluation are, in my prejudiced opinion as an author, a great advantage. As a reader of joseki dictionaries, I would even say: very great advantage. That both were missing when I read the Ishida made learning josekis much harder because, in a purely tactical dictionary, one has to work out the strategic choices by oneself and badly misses evaluation of influence at all. Nevertheless, the reference function of a purely tactical dictionary is also very useful. So I would recommend to read both - a strategic / evaluation dictionary and a more detailed tactical dictionary. In which order? I would start with the simpler (because tactically less detailed) and cheaper one, also because it provides the structure with which understanding of the purely tactical dictionaries becomes easier.

9) General go and joseki theory books explaining every aspect of joseki strategy and evaluation. Only example: My Joseki series (Vol. 1, Vol. 2, Vol. 3 chapters 2 and 3). Compared to (7), there is everything instead of only something, but this advantage can also be a disadvantage for those learners disliking a great density of knowledge (even if partly it is the only or only English source for some of the knowledge). Compared to (3) and (8), general go theory books are the ideal complement. A player needs both: theory and tactical variations.

Conclusion: There are these decisions to be made:
- Only tactics, only theory or both.
- Learning from dictionary, problems, theory or from all kinds.
- Starting with selections or entering the sea immediately (or having started with the former and continuing with the latter).
- Only tactics or also strategy and evaluation. If both, then which first.
- If you choose only tactics, then choose also game examples (Ishida) or also modern variations (Takao).

Isn't it very nice that today players have a choice? At my time as a joseki learner, there was almost only the Ishida...!

Done. Thank you for pointing out this misspelling. I also added author's names and corrected typos in the titles of the other books that I mentioned. My impression that the translation was a "labor of love" comes both from the very high quality use of the English language and from private communication with the translator.

Robert,

Thank you for you interesting review of the kyu-level joseki literature.

Also, thank you for mentioning your joseki dictionary. I was not previously aware of its nature and I appreciate the information. It is definitely on my "to buy" list. In case anybody else wants more information regarding these three volumes, here is the web address:

http://home.snafu.de/jasiek/books.html

There is one minor point in your post upon which I would like to expand:



The Ishida edition is available on-line for free. After I look up a joseki in Takao, if I want to understand it better, I then look up the joseki in Ishida. If I get that far, I normally look at the sample games too. The sample games include instructive comments and side variations.

John

Are you sure this is a legal copy? If yes, would you mind to put a link here? Thank you.

Karaklis,

Last time I checked, the Ishida edition could be downloaded from the publisher's web site without charge. That makes me about 99.99% sure that the copy was legal. That number assumes a one in ten thousand chance that the publisher's site was hacked. On second thought, can't imagine why anyone would want to hack in such a manner! Make that 99.9999%.

Did you even do a web search before you asked me to post a link for you?

Angry,

Deacon John

ps I'm angry, mostly at myself, because I almost complied with your request!

No need to be angry I think it's not obvious - even to someone with access to the google search
engine.

I mean - you're talking about the English language translation of Ishida? i.e. Kiseido's web page:

http://www.kiseido.com/Dictionary.htm

since Ishi press is no longer around. Not a single download link to be seen that I could find - and I checked their digital section too. Search engines only brought up illegal copies. I'm very curious to see the web page you mean as it's obviously something I've missed and I'd love to have a look.

best wishes.

_________________
I am John. John-I-Am.

I don't quite understand your huffy tone. I did a search, and found the books being offered by Kiseido for 25$ /volume.

_________________
Patience, grasshopper.

Yes, I also searched, just like Daal, CnP, and (I assume) Karaklis. For all your indignation, you should realize that you've sent a number of people on a wild goose-chase today.

Fwiw, the Nihon Kiin does not seem to supply a download either: I believe this is the nearest thing their bookstore has to a page on Ishida? http://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/publishing/2 ... t_156.html

If you could be more specific about which publisher you're talking about and when you saw them distributing the dictionary on their website, I think you might satisfy our collective curiousity. Thanks!

A mini-review:) Most of my real reviews are here:
http://www.gobooks.info/jasiek/
Some of the mentioned joseki books are useful for kyu and dan players.

Yes, that is the page that I had in mind. Also, Keseido is "the publisher" to whom I referred. I had thought that page included a "free" download. My memory failed me on that point. Thanks for your kind correction.

dj

Daal,

My mistake. I took Karaklis post the wrong way. Glad you pointed that out to me.

dj

Apparently, I misinterpreted the tone of your post. Please accept my apology. dj

Does anyone know what corner positions vol. 2 covers? From what I gathered, vol. 1 is all about 3-4. Does that mean vol. 2 would have 4-4, 3-5, 4-5, 3-3 etc. all crammed together?

I believe that is the idea.

Re: Volume 2

I asked about the printing schedule a few weeks ago, and this was the response.

This is now listed as being available on the Kiseido catalog page.

I've just received an email from them confirming that it's now available as well.

So has anyone gotten this second book? I'm curious to see how the series stacks up to the classic Ishida.

_________________
"There are no limits. There are plateaus, but you must not stay there, you must go beyond them. If it kills you, it kills you. A man must constantly exceed his level." -- Bruce Lee

Got mine yesterday

I don't own the previous classic dictionary and cannot make a comparison, alas.