Forum Wide Malkovich Game: Black vs. White

unkx80 · Post by **unkx80** » Thu May 20, 2010 3:32 am

I was hoping someone else will make this move, but it seems that nobody is going to make this move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Prisoners - B:0 W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . X X O . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X O O . . . X B . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I am surprised that white didn't cut or double hane in the last move.

Since white played the submissive move of descending, black will connect. This is the only move I think, and I feel that letting white cut is unacceptable.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Prisoners - B:0 W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . X X O . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X O W . 9 7 X 2 4 . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . 0 8 6 3 5 . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I also considered this :b1:

, but white can form a wall by sacrificing with :w2:

and

, followed by pressing black as shown. Notice how the :wc:

stone comes into play. I feel that this result is inferior for black than simply connecting.

unkx80 · Post by **unkx80** » Thu May 20, 2010 4:17 am

I made that comment offhand without much thinking. Now that Joaz asked this very good question, I have the burden to think about it to properly answer it. And then the differences aren't very big, sometimes quite subtle.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . 1 X O . O 3 . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X O . . 4 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I recommended the connection at :b1:

.

may extend, but then :b3:

and

is an acceptable attack.

Of course, :w2:

may see the double hane as a kikashi and tenuki, e.g., by playing the double approach against the corner. However, it does feel that white is missing a move around :w2:

.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . 3 X O . O . 4 5 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X O 2 . . . X 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . a 1 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The atari at :b1:

goes against the 1-2-3 principle, and leaves behind a cutting point at a that may be exploited later.

Also, the existence of :w2:

makes the white group strong. It has some profound effects against the corner when white cuts at :w4:

and

. I have yet to figure out the best black response against :w6:

, but black will have an easier if white cuts without having the :w2:

stone.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . X X O . O 9 O X 1 . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X O O . . 7 X O 4 . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X 2 . . 0 6 8 5 . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Here is one imagined sequence, which isn't possible if white had not connected. I didn't read all variations though.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc (5 at marked stone) $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . X X O . O 1 W X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X O O . . 2 X O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . 6 4 . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Here is another imagined sequence.

Dusk Eagle · Post by **Dusk Eagle** » Sat May 22, 2010 7:03 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Prisoners - B:0 W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . X X O . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X O O . . W X X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The normal move in place of our last move would have been the double-hane. I am not strong enough to say if it would have been the best in this situation though. Either way, we must make our group strong. Strong is not the same as alive. If black can profit wildly by playing all kinds of moves that force us into a submissive life or force us to run for our lives, than we were not strong. Black would be profiting wildly in sente while we made minimum points. This is why the proverb "Urgent points before big points" is important - big points are often gote, but neglecting urgent points gets the opponent a ton of points in sente.

Anyway, this move is a pretty vital point for both sides, and black is practically forced to respond. I was originally going to play the move below instead, but my intuition says that this vital point is vital and that we can always go back to the move below to gouge out some of the corner and improve our eye shape.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O W . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . X X O . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X O O . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Why is my move a good move for black? Well, beside from ruining our eye shape in a running fight, if I play elsewhere, thinking we're strong, and then we play elsewhere again, saying "Can't let black profit in sente from his move", this is one possibility.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 7 4 O 9 . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . X X O 8 O 3 O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X O O . . 1 X X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Painful $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O 2 . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . X X O O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X O O . . X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Sun May 23, 2010 12:44 pm

I think that everybody above 15K understands that there is going to be pushing and shoving here: white trying to get out, and black trying to preserve right side territory as white goes past. So I'm not hiding any of this.
( BTW, I'm not trying to hack Dusk Eagle, I just thought that this was a good opportunity to show beginners what tewari analysis looks like. )

After white's most recent, it will almost certainly look like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . X X O . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X O O . . W X X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . 2 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |[/go]

Let's do some tewari analysis on the above diagram. Let's take out the marked stone, and pretend that we are allowing white to put it anywhere that he wants:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . X X O . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X O O . . C X X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . 2 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |[/go]

Now, does white really want that stone to be at the circled point? Or would white rather have it as shown below?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . X X O . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X O O . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . 2 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . W 3 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |[/go]

My conclusion is that the most recent white move should have been like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . X X O . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X O O . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |[/go]

...probably leading to something like this where the cut at 'a' starts becoming interesting.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . X X O . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X O O . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . a X . . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . 3 . 2 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |[/go]

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Tue May 25, 2010 10:22 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Prisoners - B:0 W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . X X O . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X O O . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . B . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Dusk Eagle · Post by **Dusk Eagle** » Wed May 26, 2010 1:58 pm

Joaz's move definitely seems better to me

. I shouldn't have overlooked that move.

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Wed May 26, 2010 2:00 pm

Your move is the sort I would have played instinctively, I never would have considered Joaz's, not for a minute. Obviously, I really need to work on looking for this sort of thing. Thanks, Joaz.

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Wed May 26, 2010 2:58 pm

Not this Joaz? This looks more fun

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . X X O . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X O O . . W X X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . 2 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |[/go]

Mainly because it deprives White of this in sente:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . X X O . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X O O . . W X X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . 2 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . a . . . 4 3 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . a . . 6 5 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |[/go]

Of course, White's pushing from behind on the 6th line (!?!?) but anything else is risking Black sealing White in - isn't that more unpleasant with Black's framework potential, and therefore aiming to be able to get "a" worth it? Black I think should play more sharply if he can to prevent this.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Wed May 26, 2010 8:03 pm

topazg wrote:Not this Joaz? This looks more fun

$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X X O . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X O O . . W X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . 2 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . X X O . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X O O . . W X X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . 2 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |[/go]

...

I thought about it, but the resulting black position felt too weak.

If there were black stones at either of the marked positions, or at the lower right star point, I might be in favor of it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O C . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . X X O . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X O O . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It is a tough one to call. I may be paranoid.

unkx80 · Post by **unkx80** » Thu May 27, 2010 2:51 am

How come you guys are discussing moves that haven't been played so openly?

Zwergesel · Post by **Zwergesel** » Thu May 27, 2010 7:26 am

Guess I'll join team white!
Hi, everyone!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Prisoners - B:0 W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . X X O . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X O O . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . W X . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

edit: Oops, let's try this diagram again!

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Thu May 27, 2010 8:15 am

unkx80 wrote:How come you guys are discussing moves that haven't been played so openly?

Hem, sorry, you are quite right. For some reason I thought this was a variation that now couldn't be played because it had taken a different path. :oops:

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Thu May 27, 2010 8:15 am

Still, having said it, I'm on team Black now:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Prisoners - B:0 W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . X X O . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X O O . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Dusk Eagle · Post by **Dusk Eagle** » Thu May 27, 2010 12:12 pm

I feel that learning from these moves is more important than this actual game.

Plus, if I can bait team black to show more sequences than team white does... :twisted:

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Thu May 27, 2010 12:25 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Prisoners - B:0 W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . X X O . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X O O . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . W X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I guess I haven't taken the helm in a while. Here goes nothing...

Okay, the two options I see are these:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Prisoners - B:0 W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . X X O . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X O O . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . a X b . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Both seem to end up very similarly.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Prisoners - B:0 W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . X X O . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X O O . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X 4 . O X 1 . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . 2 X W . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Prisoners - B:0 W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . X X O . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X O O . 2 O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X 4 1 O X . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . W X 3 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The second way seems to push black slightly less far south, so it seems preferable.

I feel like we're behind. Are we behind? I guess we're beind on the board because we jumped in to reduce/invade their top side, and we still have our bottom framework intact. I really like the idea of taking somewhere around the west star point ASAP, as it's halfway between our thicknesses. But it seems better not to get shut into the northwest first.

Life In 19x19

Forum Wide Malkovich Game: Black vs. White

Re: Forum Wide Malkovich Game: Black vs. White

Re: Forum Wide Malkovich Game: Black vs. White

Re: Forum Wide Malkovich Game: Black vs. White

Re: Forum Wide Malkovich Game: Black vs. White

Re: Forum Wide Malkovich Game: Black vs. White

Re: Forum Wide Malkovich Game: Black vs. White

Re: Forum Wide Malkovich Game: Black vs. White

Re: Forum Wide Malkovich Game: Black vs. White

Re: Forum Wide Malkovich Game: Black vs. White

Re: Forum Wide Malkovich Game: Black vs. White

Re: Forum Wide Malkovich Game: Black vs. White

Re: Forum Wide Malkovich Game: Black vs. White

Re: Forum Wide Malkovich Game: Black vs. White

Re: Forum Wide Malkovich Game: Black vs. White

Re: Forum Wide Malkovich Game: Black vs. White