AGA losses in 2011 Congress

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Joaz Banbeck
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AGA losses in 2011 Congress

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

[admin]
The thread about Feng Yun's candidacy evolved into at least two separate discussions: one about conflict of interest, and the other about 22,000 dollars that the AGA lost in the 2011 Congress. In the interest of improving the readability of both discussions, I wanted to separate them. Since the conflict of interest has been the most recently addressed issue in the main thread, I decided to leave it there and I extracted this subject into its own thread.
-JB

[/admin]

Feng Yun wrote:...
I want to make AGA decision making more transparent... The AGA lost tens of thousands of dollars at the 2011 Go Congress without explanation to members...


I like this part.
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Re: Upcoming Elections - Feng Yun appears in the line up

Post by Javaness2 »

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Feng Yun wrote:...
I want to make AGA decision making more transparent... The AGA lost tens of thousands of dollars at the 2011 Go Congress without explanation to members...


I like this part.


Is that actually true?
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Re: Upcoming Elections - Feng Yun appears in the line up

Post by vash3g »

Javaness2 wrote:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Feng Yun wrote:...
I want to make AGA decision making more transparent... The AGA lost tens of thousands of dollars at the 2011 Go Congress without explanation to members...


I like this part.


Is that actually true?


This is true by all accounts I've heard and was reported in the E-Journal. From what I've been told by those in the know this is a semi-sensitive issue between some AGA personnel. I believe they are keeping it private at this time because they dont want to cause a bigger stir and let it be known that the issue was taken care of.
Decisions are made by those who show up.
and possibly those willing to attend secret meetings in ancient basements
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Re: Upcoming Elections - Feng Yun appears in the line up

Post by vash3g »

Feng Yun wrote:...
I want to make AGA decision making more transparent...


Jie Li also wanted to make the AGA decision making more transparent. Can anyone who reads the minutes or the EJ find examples of this that are NOT ones sent out by DanielTheSmith?

Ill even sweeten the pot to a couple beers for someone at a congress if they can find a couple of examples.
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Re: Upcoming Elections - Feng Yun appears in the line up

Post by snorri »

vash3g wrote:
This is true by all accounts I've heard and was reported in the E-Journal. From what I've been told by those in the know this is a semi-sensitive issue between some AGA personnel. I believe they are keeping it private at this time because they dont want to cause a bigger stir and let it be known that the issue was taken care of.


Which issue of th E-Journal reported this?
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Re: Upcoming Elections - Feng Yun appears in the line up

Post by jts »


Is that actually true?


This is true by all accounts I've heard and was reported in the E-Journal. From what I've been told by those in the know this is a semi-sensitive issue between some AGA personnel. I believe they are keeping it private at this time because they dont want to cause a bigger stir and let it be known that the issue was taken care of.

Originally I thought nothing of this... Any organization that runs its conventions as profitable ventures needs to be prepared to accept losses. But the fact that there is a secret explanation that normal people aren't allowed to know is very disappointing, and starting to look like a pattern.
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Re: Upcoming Elections - Feng Yun appears in the line up

Post by pwaldron »

jts wrote:Originally I thought nothing of this... Any organization that runs its conventions as profitable ventures needs to be prepared to accept losses. But the fact that there is a secret explanation that normal people aren't allowed to know is very disappointing, and starting to look like a pattern.


You may recall that the Rochester congress also initially showed a loss. After finalizing the books (and, I think, realizing that they were overcharged by the venue) the event showed a small profit. I don't expect the AGA has any desire to push an E-Journal headline about a significant loss in the congress, but if it doesn't appear in the board minutes (when will they be posted?) then I would be worried.
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Re: Upcoming Elections - Feng Yun appears in the line up

Post by hyperpape »

It's alluded to in the notes that have been published. It doesn't sound like another miracle in line with Rochester is forthcoming.
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Re: Upcoming Elections - Feng Yun appears in the line up

Post by daniel_the_smith »

snorri wrote:
vash3g wrote:
This is true by all accounts I've heard and was reported in the E-Journal. From what I've been told by those in the know this is a semi-sensitive issue between some AGA personnel. I believe they are keeping it private at this time because they dont want to cause a bigger stir and let it be known that the issue was taken care of.


Which issue of th E-Journal reported this?


I found a link in my email:

http://www.usgo.org/news/2012/02/%E2%80 ... d-meeting/

At the following board meeting, I asked what happened to the report that we said we were going to make, and the general feeling was that the issue had blown over and didn't need to be brought back up (more detail may or may not be in the minutes). I didn't push hard, now I'm wishing I had. That's my own mistake; next time I'll make a bigger fuss.

My understanding (and this is just me, not an official statement of any sort, and I'm saying this from memory without going back through my email) is that the loss was primarily due to there being many more cancelations than expected, and a few more comps than were budgeted. I also understand that adjustments have been made so as not to repeat this in the coming years.
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Re: AGA losses in 2011 Congress

Post by direwolf »

Maybe the reason this was no published is one of the organizers was on the board and is now president of the AGA. Sounds like this could have been an embarrassment to the AGA leadership at a time when their leadership and vision was being called into question.
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Re: AGA losses in 2011 Congress

Post by daniel_the_smith »

Direwolf, IMO Andy wasn't so involved in the 2011 congress that a loss would reflect badly on him in any way. I'm not even sure he had an official role, though he may very well have, since he was local.

I think I already said how it came about that my press release was not followed up on in the thread Joaz split this one from.
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Re: AGA losses in 2011 Congress

Post by direwolf »

Sorry but one of the few AGA board minutes shows different.

Allan: Happy to put breakeven discussion off till next month.
Paul: To put board at ease, the 2012 Congress, at 400 attendees we expect $30,000
surplus. We’ll have a safety net.
Lisa: The problem in Southern California is how ridiculously expensive So Cal is.
Chris K. We took a risk with our eyes open.
Andy: My club is one of the local clubs and I had visible role.
Jie: How are we going to publicize this issue to members?


http://www.usgo.org/files/boardminutes/ ... -27-12.pdf

having a Role in this along with a financial loss at the same time trying to negotiate the monies with the pro league could have be embarrassing at the time don't you think?
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Re: AGA losses in 2011 Congress

Post by HKA »

direwolf wrote:having a Role in this along with a financial loss at the same time trying to negotiate the monies with the pro league could have be embarrassing at the time don't you think?


Not really. Do not get me wrong - I am not trying to dismiss this issue, but I do not think Mr. Okun is to "blame" here, and to his credit, in the minutes, he steps up to the plate and acknowledges his role.

But this begs the question - what is the role of the US Go Congress? Should it be the primary funding source for the AGA, or should it be a tool for helping the AGA strengthen around the country?

I have always been of the view that the Congress should first, makes sure it does not lose money and second make sure it is affordable enough so that as many folks can come as possible.

We have had so many Congresses, and yet we had NEVER had a Congress in Southern California - a region where go players have always been thick on the ground, but AGA efforts to corral them had been not as successful. The AGA decided, despite cost concerns, despite the need to import directors from the other side of the country, that is was important and about time that the Congress flew its flag in So Cal. I think this was a reasonable decision, a laudable goal, and it was not like they turned down other bidders to do so. It was certainly a great Congress, and while it was an expensive one, the organizers tried to keep it as inexpensive as possible.

So if there job was to deliver a $30,000 profit - well, they needed to charge attendees $125 more per person. Not only would that have been really painful, it would have meant less people to cover fixed costs and a need to charge even more.

I think the organizers did a great job. I think having a Go Congress is important, and having one in So Cal was a great idea, and the volunteers there, and the ones that travelled in made it happen. As Chris K. alluded to, this was a risk - the costs were high. There was an expectation that many more local players would swell the numbers, and that a Congress in this part of the country, for the first time, would be a nationwide draw.

In case you have not noticed, from the time the decision to make this congress was made, our economy has had major issues, and certainly this dampened attendance.

So yes, Andy Okun had "a role in this". A role in making sure the Congress happened, in a new part of the country, and it was a lot of fun for those who attended. He should be commended for that role.

Yes, it is certainly wrong that 400 of us had a $50 better time than we should have had, and the AGA as a whole has to take that hit. Philosphically, however, normally those of us who attend Congresses essentially overpay $50 for the time had, and the AGA as a whole reaps the reward. Too me, both outcomes are not ideal, and, unfortunately, it is very difficult to hit the price point exactly.
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Re: AGA losses in 2011 Congress

Post by daniel_the_smith »

direwolf wrote:Sorry but one of the few AGA board minutes shows different.

Allan: Happy to put breakeven discussion off till next month.
Paul: To put board at ease, the 2012 Congress, at 400 attendees we expect $30,000
surplus. We’ll have a safety net.
Lisa: The problem in Southern California is how ridiculously expensive So Cal is.
Chris K. We took a risk with our eyes open.
Andy: My club is one of the local clubs and I had visible role.
Jie: How are we going to publicize this issue to members?


http://www.usgo.org/files/boardminutes/ ... -27-12.pdf

having a Role in this along with a financial loss at the same time trying to negotiate the monies with the pro league could have be embarrassing at the time don't you think?


My point was more that if you're going to hand out blame in proportion to responsibility, there are a lot of people in line ahead of Andy. The congress co-directors and treasurer, the AGA congress liaison, and all the people that registered and didn't show up all probably deserve more blame than Andy.

As others have pointed out, a surplus implies that attendees are overpaying. I think the most desirable outcome of a congress is a very small profit. I agree with HKA that overall, the congress was a good thing, and we shouldn't be handing out too many demerits here in the first place. I'm just saying that if we do need to hand out demerits, Andy is mostly the wrong person to give them to.
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Re: AGA losses in 2011 Congress

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

direwolf wrote:Sorry but one of the few AGA board minutes shows different.

Allan: Happy to put breakeven discussion off till next month.
Paul: To put board at ease, the 2012 Congress, at 400 attendees we expect $30,000
surplus. We’ll have a safety net.
Lisa: The problem in Southern California is how ridiculously expensive So Cal is.
Chris K. We took a risk with our eyes open.
Andy: My club is one of the local clubs and I had visible role.
Jie: How are we going to publicize this issue to members?


http://www.usgo.org/files/boardminutes/ ... -27-12.pdf

having a Role in this along with a financial loss at the same time trying to negotiate the monies with the pro league could have be embarrassing at the time don't you think?


Andy Okun was not in charge, and was not responsible for the loss.

I have probably more knowledge of Andy Okun's role in preparing for Congress than anyone but Andy himself. We literally worked side by side doing much of the legwork here in Southern California. During the spring/summer of 2010, we were in contact almost every day, and visited potential venues together.

Andy was not directing Congress. Although he was an AGA officer at the time, he was doing the lowest level work, not functioning as managment at all. He did it because he was local, not because he was an officer. He did the same thing that I did - because we were both local members willing to do the legwork.

Andy reported to the directors, as did I. They made the final decisions. He did not.
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