How Deep does The Rabbit Hole Go?

[Violence]

Nah, that's just the boss of the KGS world. I think the final boss is named Sedol or something.

[daniel_the_smith]

I thought the last boss was someone called Sai... ?

[Chew Terr]

Nah, he's just a summon.

[xed_over]

While you're improving, the win/loss ratio is not actually 50/50 - you do win more than you lose.

This is not true. It is possible to lose more games than you win and sill improve.

I had two different students who lost every game they ever played with me, but they each steadily improved each week.

[palapiku]

While you're improving, the win/loss ratio is not actually 50/50 - you do win more than you lose.

This is not true. It is possible to lose more games than you win and sill improve.

I had two different students who lost every game they ever played with me, but they each steadily improved each week.

I mean if you're playing online against people of your rank.

[GoCat]

Wow... quite a thread. I've been avoiding this one, and finally read through it all. The rabbit hole does, indeed, go deep! Folks have made so many good comments and observations, here. I've wanted to respond to many -- too many, in fact. Not sure I can do it all, but I can offer my own thoughts...

To start with, I will admit that I learned to play go about 32 years ago, and I'm currently 5K (OGS, anyway; no idea on KGS or anywhere else.) What I know from this is that advancement (in Go, or other field) is largely a function of one's desire to advance and how that desire translates to the time/energy one dedicates relative to other aspects of life. For me, that desire wasn't more than my desire to raise a family, pursue my career so as to provide for my family, and to enjoy other pursuits. Because of all that, there was a long 12 (or so) year break where I didn't even think about Go.

It's not that I don't want to be 5-Dan, it's that I could never prioritize getting there.

Someone once told me a nice analogy about life, which I've always liked: At any time in our lives, there are any number of things pulling on us, trying to get our time/energy. We have many desires for what we want to do. Each of these is like a rubber band stretched out, pulling us in some direction. Those rubber bands are internal (my own desires) and external (worldy needs and demands). Ultimately, where we go is the net sum of all those forces. Those who excel (at Go, music, sport, etc) are those who have the strongest rubber band pulling them to that particular place.

Actorios asks "which rank can I expect to reach?" Of course, it's up to you and your rubber bands!

As HKA eloquently pointed out, Go is for everyone who takes pleasure in the game. And I, for one, have taken much pleasure while making no progress!

[Suji]

In response to how deep does it go, how high do you want to be ranked? That's exactly how deep it is.

I also want to get to at least 1 dan. I have, as of this moment, no doubt that I can achieve this.

Topazg is indeed correct when he states that one might enjoy the game less because of an attitude shift required to gain the necessary strength. It's certainly true for me. The more serious I get about a game the less I enjoy it, and the less it feels like a game to me. Hopefully, this won't happen to me with Go.

[entropi]

I really like the point that we just don't like losing and so try to improve. While you're improving, the win/loss ratio is not actually 50/50 - you do win more than you lose.

That's not necessarily true. Let's say you are 5 kyu, you win one game against a shodan and lose two games against a 5dan. Even though you lost more than you won, I would expect your rank to increase in most (if not all) ranking systems.

But that's not the discussion anyway. I had the stable state in mind, at the level where you want to reach, let's say shodan for example. After having reached your goal, the win/loss ratio will be back 50/50.

This is probably a large part of the initial exhilaration of the Go learning curve. But of course the curve eventually flattens out to the point where, even as you're improving, there's no perceptible effect on the win/loss ratio. At this point you have to either accept the fact that you lose 50% of your games and need to run faster just to stay in one place, or take up another game

Completely agree

[HermanHiddema]

In answer to the original question:

AFAIK Harry Weerheijm (founder of EuroGoTV) started at age 38 and reached 1d (Dutch, equivalent to 2d KGS probably) in two years.

[palapiku]

In answer to the original question:

AFAIK Harry Weerheijm (founder of EuroGoTV) started at age 38 and reached 1d (Dutch, equivalent to 2d KGS probably) in two years.

And had a chess rating of 2100 before that. I don't believe this is a coincidence.

[Edit] ...to clarify my train of thought: I have absolutely no knowledge of Harry Weerheijm. But when you said he started Go at 38 and got shodan in two years, I decided that he must have been good at chess. So I googled for Harry Weerheijm Chess and got a confirmation from an Enclave magazine copy.

[Magicwand]

i know someone who reached 6D in 6 month and he started go at age of 24.
he was invited to Fujisu cup for winning first place about 25 years ago.

[Tortue]

I am 31, started go one and half a year ago. I am now 6k kgs.
I feel like I can reach 1 dan kgs, which is my "reasonable" goal. When/if I reach shodan kgs, I will want to get to my less reasonable goal : 3 dan EGF. I feel it is less reasonable because it looks like one have to work a lot to get there, I might never have the time or the will to do so much work.

Why dan level as a goal ? To be part of the "dan crowd", even if it is obvious now that I will feel as weak at Go than before, it is exactly as someone else put it in a previous message : "so that when someone ask me if I am dan level, I can say yes"

There is the adult part of me who likes Go, the stronger I get the more thing I understand, the more amazed I am at Go and mostly at what past people standing on the shoulders of their ancestors invented, created in this game. This part of me plays go for enjoyment, likes to win and wants to improve his understanding of the game to reach the point where I could understand some pro comments with a lot of thinking.

And there is the more "childish" part of me who like to watch the KGS graph, who don't want to play after I gained a stone in fear of losing it with a loss. Who wants to be able some day to call himself a "dan player".

I don't do a lot of tsumego (maybe once a week for the past year). I review one on five games I play. And we have a group lesson with Pierre Audouard ( french teacher ) twice a month. I feel like I improve the most when playing just one serious game a day with at least 25min thinking time. I can concentrate on the game and if I lose I feel like I have played my best.

Cheers ! Raph (tortue on KGS)
PS : I wish I could say one day "no one can give me 9 stones and win anymore" ... I can continue dreaming

[palapiku]

Oh, I'd like to be able to beat computers one day. Unfortunately when computers were 8k I was 20k, and now that I'm 6k, they're already 1d. I'm losing hope of catching up.