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Offline jts
 Post subject: Tsumego from a game
Post #1 Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:01 pm 
Oza
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Black to move. Is the group on the bottom alive?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 19x19 board
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X O O O . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . X O X O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This post by jts was liked by: HermanHiddema
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Offline Dusk Eagle
 Post subject: Re: Tsumego from a game
Post #2 Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:10 pm 
Gosei
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:lol: You're evil.

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No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.

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Offline Boidhre
 Post subject: Re: Tsumego from a game
Post #3 Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:36 pm 
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I can't find a way for black to live, I'm a liberty short in the capturing race on the left where I'm probably missing something. Thanks for a fun problem to play with though. :)
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Offline speedchase
 Post subject: Re: Tsumego from a game
Post #4 Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:56 pm 
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how does white kill :b1:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 19x19 board
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X O O O . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . X O X O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O 1 . . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Boidhre
 Post subject: Re: Tsumego from a game
Post #5 Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:25 pm 
Oza

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I couldn't find a good answer to:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 19x19 board
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X O O O . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . X O X O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O 1 2 . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'd be delighted to be shown a refutation.

Edit:

I think I see one:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 19x19 board
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X O O O . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . X O X O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O 1 2 . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Never mind:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 19x19 board
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X O O O . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X 7 X O X O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O 1 2 6 X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 3 4 0 . 9 8 . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 19x19 board
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X O O O . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . X O X O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . 2 X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . . 1 X O . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Last edited by Boidhre on Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline speedchase
 Post subject: Re: Tsumego from a game
Post #6 Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:35 pm 
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Boidhre wrote:

Edit:

I think I see one:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 19x19 board
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X O O O . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . X O X O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O 1 2 . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

that is what I was thinking
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Offline Boidhre
 Post subject: Re: Tsumego from a game
Post #7 Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:39 pm 
Oza

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See my edit.
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Offline speedchase
 Post subject: Re: Tsumego from a game
Post #8 Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:42 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 19x19 board
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X O O O . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X 7 X O X O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O 1 2 6 X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 3 4 9 . . 8 . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Boidhre
 Post subject: Re: Tsumego from a game
Post #9 Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:47 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2356
Location: Ireland
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Was liked: 442
Universal go server handle: Boidhre
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 19x19 board
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X O O O . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X 7 X O X O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O 1 2 6 X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 3 4 9 . . 8 . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black lives?

Edit: I guess so. :)
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Offline speedchase
 Post subject: Re: Tsumego from a game
Post #10 Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:53 pm 
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I think so. There are some interesting variations with the cut, and I can't read it completely but I don't see anyway for white to kill
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Offline HermanHiddema
 Post subject: Re: Tsumego from a game
Post #11 Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:46 am 
Gosei
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Looks like a difficult fight for both sides
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Offline ez4u
 Post subject: Re: Tsumego from a game
Post #12 Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:59 am 
Oza
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@Herman - What happens if B cuts at H5 instead of L4 in yours?

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Offline HermanHiddema
 Post subject: Re: Tsumego from a game
Post #13 Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:40 am 
Gosei
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ez4u wrote:
@Herman - What happens if B cuts at H5 instead of L4 in yours?


H6, then L4 if black extends and it doesn't look good?

But really, you would have to ask: Click to show
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Offline ez4u
 Post subject: Re: Tsumego from a game
Post #14 Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:31 am 
Oza
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Ha! Ha! When you posted your variation I thought, "Wow! This is as bad as the 'Big Fight' game". But I never considered that it might actually be so. :blackeye:

@jts - You rat! :bow:

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Offline speedchase
 Post subject: Re: Tsumego from a game
Post #15 Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:01 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 19x19 board
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X O O O . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . X O X O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O 1 3 2 X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black at least has this ko variation right? he also has the local threats on the outside
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Offline mitsun
 Post subject: Re: Tsumego from a game
Post #16 Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:31 am 
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Am I missing something?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 19x19 board
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X O O O . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . X O X O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O 5 1 . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 4 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 19x19 board
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . 2 X O O O . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . X O X O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . 1 . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

B has lots of local ko threats
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Offline HermanHiddema
 Post subject: Re: Tsumego from a game
Post #17 Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:47 am 
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mitsun wrote:
Am I missing something?


Nah, just that this is a bit of a joke by jts. The position is from the Famous Killing Game Of 1926. And my reply just shows the next 40-ish moves from the game :)

As to why Karigane did not play your variation, I don't know. And I'm afraid it's too late to ask him now :)

Too slow, perhaps? In your ko variation, white defends the E4 cutting point with sente, while keeping the ko in reserve.

This post by HermanHiddema was liked by: Bonobo
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Offline mitsun
 Post subject: Re: Tsumego from a game
Post #18 Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:24 am 
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HermanHiddema wrote:
mitsun wrote:
Am I missing something?

Nah, just that this is a bit of a joke by jts. The position is from the Famous Killing Game Of 1926. And my reply just shows the next 40-ish moves from the game :)

Aha, I was definitely missing something then, thanks :)
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Offline jts
 Post subject: Re: Tsumego from a game
Post #19 Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:05 am 
Oza
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Here is the whole game. I've added in comments and variations from various sources, and marked out the ones that are from actual Go professionals.



Attachments:
Killing Game.sgf [11.04 KiB]
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This post by jts was liked by: cyclops
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