3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Phelan · Post by **Phelan** » Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:40 pm

This game was being played on GD.
Here is the latest position, in case the players decide to continue it here.

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:29 am

I plan on making a move here at some point.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:51 am

I wouldn't recommend playing too much for the next 12 hours.
As you can see in this thread, there is going to be some shuffling going on. I plan to do it tonight after everyone has a chance to comment. If I screw up, your new game will disappear. If you do play, KEEP BACKUPS.

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:59 am

OK, hope everyone is here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm33 Move 33 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:22 am

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:34 am

EDIT: Hahaha, oops, it's my move

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm34 Move 34 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think White can only play this way:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm34 Move 34-39 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X 6 2 3 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X 5 O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 4 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Where 40 is supposed to go I haven't the faintest idea - I wish magicwand hadn't double-haned, this is way too messy

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:17 pm

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:52 pm

Post by **Jordus** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:59 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm35 Move 35 Prisoners White 0 Black 1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:08 pm

This is why I didn't like the connection, for those that were wondering:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm34 Move 34-37 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 X O 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Neither this, nor 37@36 + 36@37, look even slightly attractive. All that's happened is White's unsettled his own dragon, and left Black cut up but strong enough everywhere to handle.

Dusk Eagle · Post by **Dusk Eagle** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:52 pm

For topazg (everyone else can read as soon as topazg makes his previous post available to read):

The chance of this sequence occuring is gone, so I have no qualms with asking you this.

My own feeling is that you don't like the diagram you showed above due to move 36, which is basically a stillborn stone (i.e. dead as soon as it is placed on the board) and it weakens your other cutting stone. Did you consider 'a' or 'b' below as alternatives if black played B35?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm34 Move 36 alternatives $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . a O X . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . b 2 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Edit: Here's the game as it was on GoDiscussions to this point. To observers - it's definitely worth reading through all the hidden comments to see how one player's plans interacts with another's.

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:59 pm

Response to dusk eagle:

I considered "a", but I figured Black could fix his problems pretty easy:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm34 Move 36 alternatives $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . . 6 . X . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 4 X O 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . b 3 O X . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . a . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I figure the last thing White wants right now is to have to run around with his big eyeless dragon flailing madly, and I can't see much counter-pressure being put on Black's group just yet. "a" is possible, but maybe Black can play "6" more aggressively, either at "a" himself, or even at "b".

"b" I considered, but not in any great depth:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm34 Move 36 alternatives $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . 9 . . O X . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 7 5 X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 8 6 X O 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . 4 . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

There's this I suppose, but White's crippling his bottom at the expense of trying to save that group. I think saving that group is sooo important. White wanted to attack Black's middle group, and the sacrifice I played doesn't allow that really, but it's too late. Any chances of attacking it went in my opinion when the double hane happened.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm34 Move 36 alternatives $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X 6 2 3 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X 5 O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 4 . 7 a . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . b . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I might play 40 here, thinking about it, which makes a rather fun miai of "a" and "b". All in all, I think forcing Black to trot around the outside and capture a single stone is well worth it to get White solidly settled - especially in a position where attacking the right edge isn't unfeasible.

Phelan · Post by **Phelan** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:32 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm36 Move 36 Prisoners White 0 Black 1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't really have much choice...It's either play this or White gets cut to pieces... I still wonder what magicwand wanted to do with this sequence.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm35 Alternative 1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X 3 X 2 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X 1 O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I could try playing this ko, White could still connect if we won, but I don't think we're in a good position to fight something as big as this now. Especially since black gets more out of winning the ko than we do.

I don't see any other good moves, really.

The way I see the game going now is this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm35 Move 36 followup $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X 4 X 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X 3 O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O 2 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

And I don't like it.

White still isn't connected, and can only make one eye in gote. And in the meantime, black is getting thicker in the center, which means it won't be easy to attack it or force it somehow.
Oh well.

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:54 pm

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:57 pm

i am trying to figureout why he played as he did... was he scared of 1?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 4 2 , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . 3 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

another variation.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . 2 , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . 3 . 4 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

for observers 1 is an overplay that mid dan level players use against kyu player. for you to get stronger you must first distinguish if what your opponent plays is an overplay or not.
then you find the move that will overcome that play by reading skills.
so
1) feeling that the move is an overplay.
2) reading skills that will show that is an overplay
edit also point: 'a' is very tempting aji that i dont wanna lose
that is why i feel we lost whole lot of point by giving up that one stone.

Life In 19x19

3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1