Yithril vs. Magicwand

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Magicwand
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Re: Yithril vs. Magicwand

Post by Magicwand »

E3
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"

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Re: Yithril vs. Magicwand

Post by SpongeBob »

Current board after Magicwand's move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . 0 X . . O . . X . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Stay out of my territory! (W. White, aka Heisenberg)
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Re: Yithril vs. Magicwand

Post by yithril »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . 1 O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . O . . X . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It's too soon to save my stone, as I'd just be making a heavy group, so I think what I'll do is close him off. If he takes my stone on the left then I just play at the top and develop faster.
Nein Mann, ich will noch nicht gehen, ich will noch 'n bisschen tanzen.
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Re: Yithril vs. Magicwand

Post by SpongeBob »

Honestly, what is Magicwand doing here? How many points did he lose already by giving up those stones?
Stay out of my territory! (W. White, aka Heisenberg)
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Re: Yithril vs. Magicwand

Post by Magicwand »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 2 . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . O . . X . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

i dont have any computer access from my work so i will use my phone which will limit me to type the coordinate only.

i didnt expect him to play there. my LR group still have aji so i will wait till right time to play.
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"

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Re: Yithril vs. Magicwand

Post by quantumf »

SpongeBob wrote:
Honestly, what is Magicwand doing here? How many points did he lose already by giving up those stones?


I think they're some way from dead. White will feel that there are possibilities to escape through one of the gaps, or create a local life (maybe in ko). Black will be tempted at some point to play again to be more certain it.
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Re: Yithril vs. Magicwand

Post by Kirby »

I dunno, black looks great here to me...
be immersed
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Post by EdLee »

quantumf wrote:I think they're some way from dead. White will feel that there are possibilities to escape through one of the gaps, or create a local life (maybe in ko).
How does W live or escape? How to even get a ko? (Not like this: :) )
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . O 3 X 7 . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . O . . X . . 5 1 O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
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Re:

Post by Tooveli »

EdLee wrote:
quantumf wrote:I think they're some way from dead. White will feel that there are possibilities to escape through one of the gaps, or create a local life (maybe in ko).
How does W live or escape? How to even get a ko? (Not like this: :) )


Well, first of all White plays first. Black will most probably play on the top next (K16 seems good to me).
White will need some more stones on the board before it is clear where to play in the bottom right. At the moment it looks like all he has is M2.
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Post by EdLee »

Tooveli,
Tooveli wrote:Well, first of all White plays first. Black will most probably play on the top next (K16 seems good to me).
You think :b23: tenuki (to K16 or elsewhere) is bigger than killing W completely LR corner?
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Re:

Post by Tooveli »

EdLee wrote:Tooveli,
You think :b23: tenuki (to K16 or elsewhere) is bigger than killing W completely LR corner?


I think so.

To simplify things lets assume that White has this in the corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1 Prisoners:
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . . 6 . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . O 4 X 5 . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . O . . X . . . 2 O X 7 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If L5 was at M5 then I think Black can put up a much stronger resistance.
If Black tries 2 (or 4) at 5 instead then it looks to me like White can find a way to connect out.

After living White will have the following sequence later if he wants it but this damages the territory in the lower left side.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1 Prisoners:
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . O . . X . 6 4 X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 5 1 2 O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If we assume Black plays this killing move and that the aji remaining allows White to get the a-b endgame exchange then I think the difference between the two diagrams is ~27 points.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1 Prisoners:
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . O . . X . . . 1 O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . a b . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So... is getting two moves on the top worth more than this?
On a board with such good moyo potential I think so.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . O . . X . X X X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



However, there may me much cooler ways to get rid of the aji in the corner such as a,b,c,d below.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X d X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . O . . X . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If any of these 100% kill the corner while also allowing M2 to be answered at L2 then they might be best.
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Re: Yithril vs. Magicwand

Post by Magicwand »

so many discussion on this position.

i personally feel that black has slight edge but very slight.
then what did i play wrong???
i think my invasion was an overplay (maybe not)
but playable.

i feel that at our stage slight overplay is not really bad thing.
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The greater the unknown"

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Re: Yithril vs. Magicwand

Post by Magicwand »

example of aji.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . O . 3 X . 5 . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 4 2 W 1 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

this is pretty much sente for white. then black corner is not that big..

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . O , X 2 . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . O . . X . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 W . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

this is an overplay for black because i will make life in the corner very easily.

also when ko fight starts..i will have advantage because of this corner threats.
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"

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Re: Yithril vs. Magicwand

Post by yithril »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 3 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . O . . X . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Biggest point on the board.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners:
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . O 5 X 4 . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . O . . X . 6 7 2 O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 8 9 3 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners:
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . X . . 5 . 1 2 . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . 4 3 O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . O . . X . X O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O O 6 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I don't see life for White really.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners:
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . O . . X . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If he attaches under I block this way.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners:
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c O . O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . b . O X d . O . . X . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


A is pretty big. I don't think there is much corner aji, but I feel my side is a bit bigger. We'll see if I've got it in me to play b and d later. I might have too much bad aji to pull it off.
Nein Mann, ich will noch nicht gehen, ich will noch 'n bisschen tanzen.
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Tooveli,
yithril wrote:I don't see life for White really.
So yithril's assessment is W dies even if W plays first. :) We shall see.
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