Question about go ettiquette

[Trebuchet]

I'm currently playing a lady on OGS and the game is so bad I'm starting to feel guilty continuing. She's a nice 78 year old woman, but her play is (to be generous) abysmal; she's building forts in the four corners and letting me take the rest of the goban. Not only is she doing terribly but to be honest I'm bored to tears with the game and just want it to be over. I've tried to prod her to be more aggressive but she either isn't seeing my comments or is ignoring them. I'm getting tempted to just Pass until she gets the hint. (Is this how a 3 dan feels when he plays me?)

The game is unrated so it won't affect my standing, but I don't want to hurt this woman's feelings either. At what point is it OK to bail out of a game; and has anyone ideas on how to do it without bruising her ego? What is the right thing to do? Should I just go on or is there a graceful way to exit?

[Bill Spight]

This post meets my informal ethical criterion:

What would you do if she were your grandmother?

[Trebuchet]

This post meets my informal ethical criterion:

What would you do if she were your grandmother?

Tough it out and smile. *sigh* You're probably right.

(Although my grandmother would have been MUCH more aggressive. )

[Akura]

You're 25kyu, i.e. an absolute beginner. Even so you have the main part of the board, there are plenty spots, where she can take away your points. And even so you're bored or anything else, DON'T EVER LEAVE A GAME FOR SUCH A BLUNT REASON! Especially at your level, finish the game properly!
When you desperately want to quit, just resign. This way your opponent at least knows what's going on.

[Trebuchet]

You're 25kyu, i.e. an absolute beginner. Even so you have the main part of the board, there are plenty spots, where she can take away your points. And even so you're bored or anything else, DON'T EVER LEAVE A GAME FOR SUCH A BLUNT REASON! Especially at your level, finish the game properly!
When you desperately want to quit, just resign. This way your opponent at least knows what's going on.

Probably good advice all around. Thanks.

[palapiku]

I once watched a complete beginner who insisted on an even game with a 4k. When I left the club two hours later, they were not even half done. The beginner was obviously thinking very hard and straining to the limit of his ability, spending a very long time on every move. He didn't seem to be aware that all of his stones were dead.

...So, just be happy you're not that 4k

[Trebuchet]

I once watched a complete beginner who insisted on an even game with a 4k. When I left the club two hours later, they were not even half done. The beginner was obviously thinking very hard and straining to the limit of his ability, spending a very long time on every move. He didn't seem to be aware that all of his stones were dead.

...So, just be happy you're not that 4k

Oh, I am. And I really like this lady; I'm the one who persuaded her to try a turn based server. So I have a certain obligation.

I guess I knew what the answer was; I just needed to vent.

[xed_over]

I can be oddly patient with people, especially on a turn-based server. I'll just patiently keep playing for as long as they wish to continue. Even in person, if they ignore my suggestions and hints for improvement, I may even start another game with another beginner on the side -- but as long as I can tell they're trying and enjoying themselves, I'll just keep playing.

[shapenaji]

I once watched a complete beginner who insisted on an even game with a 4k. When I left the club two hours later, they were not even half done. The beginner was obviously thinking very hard and straining to the limit of his ability, spending a very long time on every move. He didn't seem to be aware that all of his stones were dead.

...So, just be happy you're not that 4k

I've had these moments before... and it drives me nuts.

I will absolutely play a game, with anyone, but when folks sit there and start thinking for ages when the rank difference is huge? Makes me not want to play that person again.

EDIT: As an addendum, when I was 5k I was very lucky to have a 6-7d player be very generous with his time. But the reason he was generous (as he told me later), was that I would play quickly, try out some interesting ideas, and resign quickly when it became apparent that the ideas didn't work.

We got a lot more games in because I played fast and resigned fast and he enjoyed each game as a study of one or two ideas. I attribute my reaching shodan in a year to those practice sessions.

So the moral of the story, don't frustrate your stronger opponents, they can pull you up.

[thirdfogie]

Many thanks for your post, Shapenaji.

I am considering joining a local club run by a high-dan player, and it will probably be
a rite of passage to play him and (hopefully) lose gracefully.
Your advice will be very helpful.

And the next time I give a large handicap, I'll try to remember that the outcome is mainly a reflection
of my opponent's skill: if Black plays well, White should not stand a chance, so a White loss is
really a chance to congratulate Black and then reduce the handicap.

[jts]

I suppose that valuing your time highly is a selection criterion for 6d players; but I don't mind playing out the endgame as white in high handicap or non-handicapped games. I'm sort of ambivalent when black resigns. Can't we say you should make your preference clear to the player in question, if it really bothers you one way or another?

I think people tend to undervalue the endgame. If I'm playing on even with someone who needs 6 stones, he's losing as many points per move in the endgame as he is in the opening. (Maybe more - beginner endgames can be very interesting because the big moves and weaknesses they [we? ] leave on the board accumulate as time goes on.) Just because you would have despaired at a certain point in a game doesn't mean black should - his opponents aren't as good as yours.

I mean, if you find the endgame boring and/or have perfect endgame and can't use your opponent's dreamtime productively to study the board position, you can just say before hand that you don't want to play out the board. Or likewise, if you think beginner fuseki is boring you can suggest that you start at move 50 of that Shuei game you've been studying.

[shapenaji]

I suppose that valuing your time highly is a selection criterion for 6d players; but I don't mind playing out the endgame as white in high handicap or non-handicapped games. I'm sort of ambivalent when black resigns. Can't we say you should make your preference clear to the player in question, if it really bothers you one way or another?

I think people tend to undervalue the endgame. If I'm playing on even with someone who needs 6 stones, he's losing as many points per move in the endgame as he is in the opening. (Maybe more - beginner endgames can be very interesting because the big moves and weaknesses they [we? ] leave on the board accumulate as time goes on.) Just because you would have despaired at a certain point in a game doesn't mean black should - his opponents aren't as good as yours.

I mean, if you find the endgame boring and/or have perfect endgame and can't use your opponent's dreamtime productively to study the board position, you can just say before hand that you don't want to play out the board. Or likewise, if you think beginner fuseki is boring you can suggest that you start at move 50 of that Shuei game you've been studying.

Endgame is valuable, but before the dan ranks, the really important thing to get out of games is opening and middle game. Endgame can be studied easily with problems, opening and middle game really take practice on the board. Also, most Kyu games can be ended in the middle game.

Also, "resign quickly" doesn't mean resign before the endgame, it just means learn to resign when the result is clear. As it's sometimes hard to tell when the result is clear when you're weaker, my rule was to play until one of my stones lost its meaning. At that point the flow of the game has been lost. If I'm trying to cobble together a new strategy, I've almost certainly lost.

Also, If you're trying 6 different strategies and then you lose, it's very difficult to get your brain to recognize the big mistakes. You want to play naturally until you realize that your natural play had a flaw, and then adjust what comes natural.

Also, I alternated between handicap and even games with my friend. Handicap games would go considerably longer, but were a better judge of my progress. Even games went more quickly and usually ended in middle game fighting. But in both cases, I tried not to drag it out.

[shapenaji]

Many thanks for your post, Shapenaji.

I am considering joining a local club run by a high-dan player, and it will probably be
a rite of passage to play him and (hopefully) lose gracefully.
Your advice will be very helpful.

And the next time I give a large handicap, I'll try to remember that the outcome is mainly a reflection
of my opponent's skill: if Black plays well, White should not stand a chance, so a White loss is
really a chance to congratulate Black and then reduce the handicap.

Glad to hear it!

The important thing against a strong opponent is to play to learn, not to play to win. Playing to learn usually involves taking a lot of risks, and will end up with a lot of losses.

For example, when I would take handicap, I was never comfortable playing defensive. My goal was to get the advantage against him locally. Handicap should be used aggressively.

The whole point is that you have a local advantage everywhere. I don't think you should be striving to increase that local advantage elsewhere by tenuki-ing and letting them settle their stones.

That doesn't mean never tenuki, tenuki is also something to learn. What it does mean is not going easy on them locally just because other areas of the board are less complicated.

[ez4u]

I'm currently playing a lady on OGS and the game is so bad I'm starting to feel guilty continuing. She's a nice 78 year old woman, but her play is (to be generous) abysmal; she's building forts in the four corners and letting me take the rest of the goban. Not only is she doing terribly but to be honest I'm bored to tears with the game and just want it to be over. I've tried to prod her to be more aggressive but she either isn't seeing my comments or is ignoring them. I'm getting tempted to just Pass until she gets the hint. (Is this how a 3 dan feels when he plays me?)

The game is unrated so it won't affect my standing, but I don't want to hurt this woman's feelings either. At what point is it OK to bail out of a game; and has anyone ideas on how to do it without bruising her ego? What is the right thing to do? Should I just go on or is there a graceful way to exit?

I recommend direct communication suggesting that the game stop since you have gotten well ahead and there is little/no chance for her to catch up. Hints, prodding, and so forth are more likely sources of confusion and frustration than resolution of the problem, particularly with a beginner. Consider the possibility that she knows she is behind but (1) does not know how to play more aggressively in such a situation, hence can not take advantage of your hints, and (2) wishes the game were over but does not know how to end it early without hurting your feelings since you were kind enough to suggest a turn-based game. Alternatively remember that you are indeed dealing with a 78 year old woman. It is more than likely that someone who has been on this earth since ~1934 can handle a polite suggestion regarding a game of Go.

[Fedya]

Endgame is valuable, but before the dan ranks, the really important thing to get out of games is opening and middle game. Endgame can be studied easily with problems, opening and middle game really take practice on the board. Also, most Kyu games can be ended in the middle game.

Also, "resign quickly" doesn't mean resign before the endgame, it just means learn to resign when the result is clear. As it's sometimes hard to tell when the result is clear when you're weaker, my rule was to play until one of my stones lost its meaning. At that point the flow of the game has been lost. If I'm trying to cobble together a new strategy, I've almost certainly lost.

Surely you can't be suggesting that when I approach a corner and things go badly leaving me with a weak group and forcing me to attack somewhere else, I should just resign instead? If so, that would mean there are games I should probably have resigned around movie 30 or so.