A strange Fuseki move

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:17 pm

Hi everyone! First post, and already I have a problem for you.

I played a game today and right in the opening my opponent played :w1:

instead of the regular Joseki move at a.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Figure 1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . b . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . c . . . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I was planning for W a followed by B b. The idea is to use my hoshi stones to their fullest.

I thought about it for a while and the best I could come up with was the lower Joseki extension/loose pincer of c, leaving d as a threat.

I've had a bad feeling from this move all day. I think it's mostly because I was vying for influence and felt that I should have pincered high anyway. My opponent ended up hitting under my hoshi at Q3 instead of invading at san-san. The game was uncomfortable until I got him floating in the centre.

How would you respond to White 1 and why? I look forward to reading your thoughts!

palapiku · Post by **palapiku** » Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:29 pm

White a is absolutely necessary. Now you can immediately play d and either seal him in completely or retake the corner.

RobertJasiek · Post by **RobertJasiek** » Sat Aug 18, 2012 12:11 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 9 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 3 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O 4 X X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 5 7 O O X . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Black 1 = 10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O O O X . . . . 2 . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . X b a . c . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White leaves the lower left unstable, so continuing as Black is a good option. The option Black A to D means that White's lower side group is weaker than expected despite the short, safe white extension on the lower side.

(How to create move numbers 10+ in diagrams?!)

EDIT:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Black 1 = 10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | C O X C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | C C O X X X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | C O O O O X . . . . O . . O . . . . . | $$ | C C B O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | C C C O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After an imagined simplifying forcing exchange, in the lower left White has 11 points while Black has one point and an excess of 8 influence stones there. Black has played one excess stone in the lower left, so adjust the calculation, here, by playing a good local continuation: White's extension on the bottom. The black wall does not have any noteworthy aji; White's corner group is pretty well confined, but part of Black's wall then points to an already countered direction.

EDIT 2:

In a more global joseki evaluation on the lower half of the board, 4 points can be added for White on the bottom, giving -14. White has two more and Black has one more relevant outside influence stones. So the Black excess of influence stones is 7. The resulting ratio becomes |-14/7| = 2. This is within the allowed value range. So, on this larger scale of positional context, one can call the result fair. Note that, on the entire bottom, the stone difference is 0.

EDIT 3:

[One point for Black on the outside.]

EDIT 4:

Oops, mistake. I forgot to account for the different number of played stones in the lower left. Now this is corrected above and the wrong ratio is removed.

shapenaji · Post by **shapenaji** » Sat Aug 18, 2012 12:12 am

I don't know that I'd rush to "d"

it is certainly big, but right now pincers become a dual purpose move of extension and attack.

I would look for a good pincer there, and bank on white having difficulty finding time to come back to the lower left and fix.

EDIT: Try a tighter pincer, "c" is too loose, you want to put pressure on his stone in the bottom right. He doesn't have time to make use of the larger extension from the bottom left, because you always have "d" to fix AND his stone is in trouble.

RobertJasiek · Post by **RobertJasiek** » Sat Aug 18, 2012 12:31 am

shapenaji wrote:I don't know that I'd rush to "d"

it is certainly big, but right now pincers become a dual purpose move of extension and attack.

See my previous post why d is a good move. Another analysis might be done for the tenuki followed by a black pincer.

shapenaji · Post by **shapenaji** » Sat Aug 18, 2012 12:35 am

RobertJasiek wrote:
shapenaji wrote:I don't know that I'd rush to "d"

it is certainly big, but right now pincers become a dual purpose move of extension and attack.

See my previous post why d is a good move. Another analysis might be done for the tenuki followed by a black pincer.

I don't think that "d" is bad, I just don't think it's optimal. If white is forced into running first, "d" becomes crippling.

RobertJasiek · Post by **RobertJasiek** » Sat Aug 18, 2012 12:39 am

shapenaji wrote:I just don't think it's optimal.

To answer this, one must make lots of more analysis also about further opening development:)

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:15 am

I didn't expect such great responses so fast!

I like the idea of a tighter pincer, with the weak stone at :w1:

and the move at d as collateral. In the game, I was afraid to extend further, and I tend not to think too clearly.

In fact, a tight pincer now seems like the obvious choice.

For numbering diagram moves past 10, there's a note to that effect at http://senseis.xmp.net/?HowDiagramsWork.

The best part is how if that any White replies to a tight pincer (let's say the vicious M3) seem to help Black, or at the very least leave him with sente.

If White finally completes his Joseki, for example...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Variation 1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . 2 . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White seems out of good moves on the bottom side.

Any of the regular responses to this pincer instead of :w3:

seem to end up giving Black a huge moyo on the bottom. White would still need to patch up his Joseki or suffer as per the variation RobertJasiek offered.

I just don't like White's comfortable two-space extension. And in this case it's my opponent who has the liberty of bullying my hoshi.

Another choice is the simple one-point jump.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Variation 2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . 6 . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . 5 . 2 . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

We can all run out while I grab some profit, and the threat at a does its job of ensuring my advantage. At this juncture, the fight would be centered around getting sente to play there first. Either way, it's not a loss for Black.

I feel a lot better already! ;-)

RobertJasiek · Post by **RobertJasiek** » Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:29 am

Please note the correction of my earlier analysis.

HermanHiddema · Post by **HermanHiddema** » Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:34 am

RobertJasiek wrote:(How to create move numbers 10+ in diagrams?!)

On the first line, start with $$Bm10

The m10 makes it that the numbering starts at 10 (so 1 becomes 10, 2 becomes 11, etc)

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:51 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Variation 2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . . . . . 4 . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . 2 . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White looks fine to me.

RobertJasiek · Post by **RobertJasiek** » Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:52 am

HermanHiddema wrote:On the first line, start with $$Bm10

The m10 makes it that the numbering starts at 10 (so 1 becomes 10, 2 becomes 11, etc)

Ok, thanks! How does one get diagrams with numbers both smaller than and at least 10?

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:08 am

RobertJasiek wrote:
HermanHiddema wrote:On the first line, start with $$Bm10

The m10 makes it that the numbering starts at 10 (so 1 becomes 10, 2 becomes 11, etc)

Ok, thanks! How does one get diagrams with numbers both smaller than and at least 10?

You could start with $$Bm8, for instance.

RobertJasiek · Post by **RobertJasiek** » Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:13 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm8 Diagram Test 4 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O O O X . . . . 4 . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

OMG, I need to write 1, 2, 3 to get 8, 9, 10? Terrible!

How do I do it for diagrams with more than 10 plays?

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:27 am

RobertJasiek wrote:How do I do it for diagrams with more than 10 plays?

No puedo.

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