W's best move?

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jts
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W's best move?

Post by jts »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . X . O . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . O O O O . O . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . O . , . X . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . O . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If it's W to move, what's the best W can do on the left side?
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topazg
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Re: W's best move?

Post by topazg »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . X . O . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O W . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O C O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . O O O O . O . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . O . , . X . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . O . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Probably my choice ...
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1986
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Re: W's best move?

Post by 1986 »

i second what topazg said without that move W could be in danger, Its simple and sweet :study:
standing still means going backwards
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illluck
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Re: W's best move?

Post by illluck »

The block is sente, so I'd just play that. Then I want to play on the right side. For example, something like below?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . X . O . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 1 O X X X . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O a . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O O . . . . , . . . 3 . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . O O O O . O . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . O . , . X . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . O . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


"a" seems fairly important, but white can push out and separate black if black plays it (or even just tenuki).
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DJLLAP
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Re: W's best move?

Post by DJLLAP »

Honinbo Shusaku vs Yasui Sanchi (almost)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . X . O . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . W . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . O O O O . O . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . O . , . X . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . O . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]




According to Yasui Sanchi under slightly different board position this is better than the capture, though I don't really understand why.
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illluck
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Re: W's best move?

Post by illluck »

DJLLAP wrote:According to Yasui Sanchi under slightly different board position this is better than the capture, though I don't really understand why.



Better influence on the outside. The liberty doesn't matter because white's three stones below has more than enough and the peep isn't worth much for black.
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topazg
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Re: W's best move?

Post by topazg »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . X . O . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . X O O W . . . . . . . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . X O C O a . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . b . . . b . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . B X . . |
$$ | . O O O O . O . . b . . . . . B O . . |
$$ | . X X . X . . . . . . b . . . B O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . B O . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . O . , . B . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . O . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The nobi is nice, I like that - but the reason I wouldn't use the block is because I'm also concerned about the influence the marked Black stones have over the "b" area. Moves like "a" are nice to remove from Black's options IMO :) The fact it secures White's group too makes it a useful dual purpose move, as well as being thick.
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jts
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Re: W's best move?

Post by jts »

Spoilers ahead!

This is the Shusaku/Sanchi game, I believe.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . X . O . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . a O O O . O . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . 7 . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , O . 3 O . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X O . 1 2 . . O . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . X . 5 4 6 . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The commentary says that B strengthens his corner with :b1: , etc., because a white stone at A is sente against the left side. But I can't figure out what exactly W can do if B ignores A, or if B defends the corner instead of the side. Thus the question.
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topazg
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Re: W's best move?

Post by topazg »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . X . O . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | 3 . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . O O O O . O . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . O . , . X . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . O . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



This is the move I'd been looking at first, it looks alive to me though :S (hence making another suggestion)

Maybe :w2: @ :b3:?
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: W's best move?

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . X . O . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . X O O 2 4 6 . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O 1 3 5 . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O . . . . . . . . a . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O O . . . . , . . . a . a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . O O O O . O . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . O . , . X . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . O . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't understand the concern about E12. Sure, it is a nuisance, but little more for white has the driving tesuji to get out. And if black tries too hard, he is just playing toothpaste go.

So I tend to like Illuck's suggestion of reducing the right side with something around the point marked 'a'.
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topazg
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Re: W's best move?

Post by topazg »

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . X . O . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . a a . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O B O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O B . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O O . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . O O O O . W . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . W . , . X . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . O . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't understand the concern about E12. Sure, it is a nuisance, but little more for white has the driving tesuji to get out. And if black tries too hard, he is just playing toothpaste go.

So I tend to like Illuck's suggestion of reducing the right side with something around the point marked 'a'.



But why would Black play that rather vulgar :b1: at all?

It's the aji of the atari on the other side that makes it hard for White to stake anything in the middle, giving a much higher chance it becomes Black's playground later. The fighting over the single stones actually caught in that engagement is petty cash, but Black's built quite a useful center facing thickness where White doesn't have clear equality from his side.

I personally don't think the left side is as urgent as the lower side (one of my many weak hats is on clearly), but if I was to play on the left, I'd rather render the two marked Black stones useless whilst simultaneously guaranteeing my group unconditional cheerfulness. It also means that a Black move around the "a" area doesn't make :b1: start to look dangerous, and it means White doesn't have to worry about having two weak groups if the connection between the marked White stones is challened.

A move around there just seems to do a great deal for White's long term bad aji - probably not urgent enough if it wasn't for the fact that it completely settles some important White stones - it just feels thick enough to play.
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