#163 Boidhre vs Drewch

Drewch
Dies with sente
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:11 pm
Rank: KGS 16k
GD Posts: 0
KGS: drewch
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch

Post by Drewch »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm59
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . O . . . X . . . X . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . O 7 . X X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . 8 . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . W . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 9 . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . X X O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O O . . . X X X O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . X O . X . . O O X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . O . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Boidhre
Oza
Posts: 2356
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:15 pm
GD Posts: 0
Universal go server handle: Boidhre
Location: Ireland
Has thanked: 661 times
Been thanked: 442 times

Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch

Post by Boidhre »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm67
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . O . . . X . . . X . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . O X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 3 . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . X X O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O O . . . X X X O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . X O . X . . O O X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . O . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Builds a moyo of my own while putting pressure on his weak side group. A hane at Q15 would be a decent follow-up. I don't think I can kill the group but I can chase it a little perhaps or make him make eyeshape in gote.
User avatar
jts
Oza
Posts: 2662
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 4:17 pm
Rank: kgs 6k
GD Posts: 0
Has thanked: 310 times
Been thanked: 632 times

Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch

Post by jts »

@boidhre

Generally a hane refers to a diagonal attachment move when you're left with a cutting point. The move you're referring to is generally called a "turn". As no doubt knew already, they have slightly different implications.
Boidhre
Oza
Posts: 2356
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:15 pm
GD Posts: 0
Universal go server handle: Boidhre
Location: Ireland
Has thanked: 661 times
Been thanked: 442 times

Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch

Post by Boidhre »

jts wrote:@boidhre

Generally a hane refers to a diagonal attachment move when you're left with a cutting point. The move you're referring to is generally called a "turn". As no doubt knew already, they have slightly different implications.


Thanks jts, I did not know the distinction in terms. :)
Drewch
Dies with sente
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:11 pm
Rank: KGS 16k
GD Posts: 0
KGS: drewch
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch

Post by Drewch »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm67
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . O . . . X . . . X . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . O X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . 2 . . . . 4 . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 3 . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . X X O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O O . . . X X X O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . X O . X . . O O X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . O . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Boidhre
Oza
Posts: 2356
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:15 pm
GD Posts: 0
Universal go server handle: Boidhre
Location: Ireland
Has thanked: 661 times
Been thanked: 442 times

Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch

Post by Boidhre »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm67
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . O . . . X . . . X . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . O X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O . . . . 4 . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . X X O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O O . . . X X X O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . X O . X . . O O X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . O . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Reduces his moyo, sketches out something of a framework for myself, though I will have to reduce the bottom "moyo" (I'm not sure if it is one) to finish the job. I have the ladder in case he tries to cut the knight's jump.
User avatar
EdLee
Honinbo
Posts: 8859
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
GD Posts: 312
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Has thanked: 349 times
Been thanked: 2070 times

Post by EdLee »

Boidhre,
Boidhre wrote:A hane at Q15 would be a decent follow-up.
jts wrote:Generally a hane refers to a diagonal attachment move when you're left with a cutting point. The move you're referring to is generally called a "turn".
Boidhre wrote:Thanks jts, I did not know the distinction in terms. :)
You probably already know this: in general -- except for the usual infinite exceptions :) --
the Q15 solid turn shape is much thicker than the hane.
For example, in this standard sequence, :b5: connecting at (a) is a big move for B;
likewise, if :b5: tenuki, then :w6: cutting at (a) is also a big move for W.
( :b5: connecting at (a) changes the hane shape to the solid "turn" shape.)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O , 1 a . . . ,
$$ | . . . 4 2 3 . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ---------------------[/go]
jts wrote:As no doubt knew already, they have slightly different implications.
Perhaps jts was being modest, but in general (again except for the infinite exceptions :)),
the implications are much more than "slightly".
Boidhre
Oza
Posts: 2356
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:15 pm
GD Posts: 0
Universal go server handle: Boidhre
Location: Ireland
Has thanked: 661 times
Been thanked: 442 times

Re:

Post by Boidhre »

EdLee wrote:Boidhre,
Boidhre wrote:A hane at Q15 would be a decent follow-up.
jts wrote:Generally a hane refers to a diagonal attachment move when you're left with a cutting point. The move you're referring to is generally called a "turn".
Boidhre wrote:Thanks jts, I did not know the distinction in terms. :)
You probably already know this: in general -- except for the usual infinite exceptions :) --
the Q15 solid turn shape is much thicker than the hane.
For example, in this standard sequence, :b5: connecting at (a) is a big move for B;
likewise, if :b5: tenuki, then :w6: cutting at (a) is also a big move for W.
( :b5: connecting at (a) changes the hane shape to the solid "turn" shape.)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O , 1 a . . . ,
$$ | . . . 4 2 3 . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ---------------------[/go]
jts wrote:As no doubt knew already, they have slightly different implications.
Perhaps jts was being modest, but in general (again except for the infinite exceptions :)),
the implications are much more than "slightly".


Ed,

Thanks Ed, that helps turn implicit knowledge into explicit knowledge. :)
User avatar
jts
Oza
Posts: 2662
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 4:17 pm
Rank: kgs 6k
GD Posts: 0
Has thanked: 310 times
Been thanked: 632 times

Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch

Post by jts »

@ed & boidhre,

I figured that explaining why a turn is more powerful than a hane in explicit terms might affect the game. ;)
Drewch
Dies with sente
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:11 pm
Rank: KGS 16k
GD Posts: 0
KGS: drewch
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch

Post by Drewch »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm67
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . O . . . X . . . X . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . O X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O . . . . 4 . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 6 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . X X O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O O . . . X X X O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . X O . X . . O O X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . O . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Boidhre
Oza
Posts: 2356
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:15 pm
GD Posts: 0
Universal go server handle: Boidhre
Location: Ireland
Has thanked: 661 times
Been thanked: 442 times

Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch

Post by Boidhre »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm67
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . O . . . X . . . X . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . O X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O . . 7 . 4 . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 6 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . X X O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O O . . . X X X O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . X O . X . . O O X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . O . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Decisions, decisions. If I go into his moyo I disrupt a lot more than he can disrupt but I get cut off from my closest neighbouring stone and my "connection" to my bottom centre group is very weak.

However I think he is forced to cut if I nobe south:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm67
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . O . . . X . . . X . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . O X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O . . 9 . 4 . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 6 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . 7 8 X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . X X O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O O . . . X X X O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . X O . X . . O O X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . O . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


However this gives me very bad shape and weakens my O10 stone considerably.

However:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm69
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . O . . . X . . . X . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . O X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O . . . . 2 . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 9 3 4 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , 7 6 5 X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . a . 8 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . X X O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O O . . . X X X O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . X O . X . . O O X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . O . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Is little better because of a.

So I think I prefer the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm67
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . O . . . X . . . X . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . O X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . O . . 9 O O . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . a . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O . . 7 . 4 . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 6 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . 8 X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . X X O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O O . . . X X X O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . X O . X . . O O X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . O . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Aiming for the cut at a.

Or the continuation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm69
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . O . . . X . . . X . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . O X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . O . . 5 O O . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . 7 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . 9 . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O . . 3 . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . 4 X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . X X O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O O . . . X X X O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . X O . X . . O O X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . O . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm77
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . O . . . X . . . X . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . O X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . O . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . 2 X 4 O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O . . X 3 O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . X X O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O O . . . X X X O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . X O . X . . O O X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . O . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Where the ladder works.
User avatar
EdLee
Honinbo
Posts: 8859
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
GD Posts: 312
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Has thanked: 349 times
Been thanked: 2070 times

Post by EdLee »

:b73: is impossible. :evil:
Marcus
Gosei
Posts: 1387
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:51 am
GD Posts: 209
KGS: Marcus316
Has thanked: 139 times
Been thanked: 111 times

Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch

Post by Marcus »

My first thought when I saw :b73: was "OW!OW!OW!OW!OW!OW!OW!OW! ..."
Boidhre
Oza
Posts: 2356
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:15 pm
GD Posts: 0
Universal go server handle: Boidhre
Location: Ireland
Has thanked: 661 times
Been thanked: 442 times

Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch

Post by Boidhre »

This has been pretty dead due to Drewch moving house and all that stress and hassle in his life, but for the record I'm putting this on hold until in a mentally more sound place. Sorry all (not that you'll be missing much with how I've been playing here!!).
Boidhre
Oza
Posts: 2356
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:15 pm
GD Posts: 0
Universal go server handle: Boidhre
Location: Ireland
Has thanked: 661 times
Been thanked: 442 times

Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch

Post by Boidhre »

I'm feeling better, how about you Drewch? :)
Post Reply