Top pros

[John Fairbairn]

The game just played on 26 May 2010 to handsel the Korean Pavilion at the Shanghai Expo featured Yi Se-tol and Chang Hao as supposedly the top players of Korea and China. Yi won, and so brought his career record against Chang to an almost embarrassing 17-7.

But are they really the top players?

I suppose there would be a measure of agreement that the top players in the world might well be these two plus Kong Jie and Yi Ch'ang-ho. A comparison of their results between each other is interesting.

Yi Se-tol:
- versus Chang Hao 17-7
- versus Gu Li 10-9
- versus Kong Jie 13-2

Yi Ch'ang-ho:
- versus Chang Hao 24-11 plus one void
- versus Gu Li 6-5
- versus Kong Jie 5-4

Yi Ch'ang-ho versus Yi Se-tol currently stands at 28-24.

The results don't seem to show any special trends over time.

Although Yi Se-tol is currently knocking lesser players down like ninepins and is still young enough not to have to worry about pacing himself, on this basis, Yi Ch'ang-ho could still perhaps be regarded as the real No. 1 in the world, followed by Yi Se-tol, but if so he and Gu Li are only a micron away. Chang Hao and Kong Jie, however, appear to belong to a different cadre.

[HermanHiddema]

Is there anyone against whom Yi Ch'ang-ho has a significantly negative record?

[topazg]

Although Yi Se-tol is currently knocking lesser players down like ninepins and is still young enough not to have to worry about pacing himself, on this basis, Yi Ch'ang-ho could still perhaps be regarded as the real No. 1 in the world, followed by Yi Se-tol, but if so he and Gu Li are only a micron away. Chang Hao and Kong Jie, however, appear to belong to a different cadre.

I'm not so sure this is fair or justified just because the historical data. Yi Se-tol has already said that Kong is a completely different (and much stronger) player now to their earlier encounters. There's a difference between ranking players on overall historical achievement, and actual strength at the current time.

EDIT: For example, I have an interesting record against a local 1k. I lost to him by 78 points in a 9 handicap game, and a number of crazy 9 handicap losses, maybe 5 overall. That was in 2007. In the last year we have played each other 3 more times as even games, and I have a 2-1 record in my favour. Does that mean that my overall record is 6-2 against despite taking an average of 6 handicap stones?

Stats are just stats, they tell you no more or less than the historical record of games.

[HermanHiddema]

Although Yi Se-tol is currently knocking lesser players down like ninepins and is still young enough not to have to worry about pacing himself, on this basis, Yi Ch'ang-ho could still perhaps be regarded as the real No. 1 in the world, followed by Yi Se-tol, but if so he and Gu Li are only a micron away. Chang Hao and Kong Jie, however, appear to belong to a different cadre.

I'm not so sure this is fair or justified just because the historical data. Yi Se-tol has already said that Kong is a completely different (and much stronger) player now to their earlier encounters. There's a difference between ranking players on overall historical achievement, and actual strength at the current time.

EDIT: For example, I have an interesting record against a local 1k. I lost to him by 78 points in a 9 handicap game, and a number of crazy 9 handicap losses, maybe 5 overall. That was in 2007. In the last year we have played each other 3 more times as even games, and I have a 2-1 record in my favour. Does that mean that my overall record is 6-2 against despite taking an average of 6 handicap stones?

Stats are just stats, they tell you no more or less than the historical record of games.

Well, John did say that: "The results don't seem to show any special trends over time."

[topazg]

Well, John did say that: "The results don't seem to show any special trends over time."

Sure, but he also said "Chang Hao and Kong Jie, however, appear to belong to a different cadre" when it was only last month (or maybe earlier this month) that Yi Se-tol was saying differently. The stats aside, with Jie's national and international record over the last year combined with the statement by a fellow top professional, I would say the "different cadre" comment is unjustified.

[Kirby]

Is there anyone against whom Yi Ch'ang-ho has a significantly negative record?

I remember hearing that Lee Changho does bad against Rui Naiwei, but I haven't checked the actual stats.

[John Fairbairn]

I remember hearing that Lee Changho does bad against Rui Naiwei, but I haven't checked the actual stats.

He does not do badly now. The career score is 5-5, but that is very much a fore-and-aft record. His fore play, so to speak, wasn't very good, but latterly Yi is in control.

Gu Li and Kong Jie have a 15-15 record, but Kong is in a different category when it comes to playing Yi Se-tol. That's a little surprising in that Yi Se-tol creates very complicated games and Kong Jie is known as the life-and-death expert among the Chinese.

Just a gentle reminder, if I may: not every mention of stats requires a lecture on freakonomics. That brings with it the air of a rules debate. The intention of the original post was simply to fill a coffee break.

[Peter Hansmeier]

I would have sent Kong Jie or Gu Li to represent China. Over the last year Kong Jie seemed to pick up his game, so I am not sure the old stats have the same meaning (Lee Sedol mentioned this in an interview). In their BC Card Cup game, Kong Jie threw away a winning position against Lee Sedol. Gu Li has been in a bit of a slump, but he recently won a tournament, so maybe he is recovering.

If I had not wanted to send one of the top two, I would have sent Chen Yaoye or Wang Xi. Chen Yaoye seems poised to break through in international play, and Wang Xi has had success against Korean players.

Maybe Chang Hao was selected to redeem his performance at the BC Card Cup final?

[hiyayang]

Being a Shanghai native, Chang Hao was selected to represent the host city of Expo 2010.

[LokBuddha]

Chang Hao is not weak, it's his style against Lee sedol. Lee Sedol like chaotic position, and chang hao style usually leave several aji stones inside opponent territory while having solid territory. So the game will be sabaki one.