#177 The Intrepid vs. uranther

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uranther
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#177 The Intrepid vs. uranther

Post by uranther »

"The Tibetan Restaurant Game: The Mystery of the Butter Tea"

We are continuing a pair Go game. I am taking black, having just made the move at S5.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Prisoners: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . B . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


We will continue this game Malkovich-style on Aug 25th.
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The Intrepid
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Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther

Post by The Intrepid »

What happens when four go players with a single go board enter a restaurant one hour before closing?

--An unfinished go game which demands a Malkovich-style completion on lifein19x19.com!

What happens if the restaurant is Tibetan?

--Same as above, except the players also get to experience a close encounter of the fourth kind with butter tea.

Butter tea--let me tell you--something just does not mix about it. No, literally. Butter and tea should not mix! When a substance composed of polar molecules (e.g., tea, which is almost entirely water) is added to a substance whose molecules are electromagnetically neutral (e.g., butter, which is 80%-82% fat), the polar molecules attract each other, pushing out the neutral ones aside. As a result, instead of mixing, the two substances separate into distinct layers. Yet, butter tea seems to defy this law. Despite being brown and opaque, the tea nevertheless seems uniform ... and, while I’m at it, why the hell would one want to add butter to tea in the first place? It is all a big mystery. Hopefully together, as this game progresses, we’ll be able to get to the bottom of it.

Now, back to the game itself. The game was begun about a month ago. With uranther leaving town for good, he, two of our friends, and I decided to get together for a farewell dinner ... and what is dinner without a go game on the side? Since we had only one board, we split into two teams. My team gave uranther’s team a handicap of six stones. After an hour of play (when we got kicked out of the restaurant), the above position was reached, with uranther having made the highlighted move. It is now my (white’s) turn.

About the players:
I am currently around 2k. However, I learned to play go only a few years ago and I started learning go seriously only six months ago. Therefore, my go-playing strength is improving. I prefer positional games (such as in the style of Lee Chang-ho). The weakest aspect of my play is fighting prowess, even though my local reading skill is fairly decent. As this game progresses, I will seek to improve my ability to fight.

As for uranther, his style seems similar to mine. That said, he and I played only half-a-dozen of games (almost all of them being handicap games), so perhaps I am mistaken. I think I am noticeably stronger at calculating concrete variations than he is. Yet, this opinion is based on four-month-old evidence. Therefore, I am not sure how things stand right now in this regard. However, what I am sure of is that uranther is not 10k, as his profile seems to indicate. I think he is around 7k, if not stronger. I certainly don’t think he is weaker than 8k. uranther, don’t sell yourself short, bro!


About the current game position:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Prisoners: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . B . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Despite having started with a 6-stone handicap, white seems to have caught up nicely. Black has a large moyo on the left side of the board but white can invade it in various ways.

My current plan is to harass black’s weak group on the right some more, taking care not to hurt my territory on the upper right in the process.

As for uranther’s last move, he probably was thinking that white would need to connect at R5, making it easier for his weak group to get life without suffering any ill effects. However, white can respond at P4, capturing two black stones. I will probably play at P4, but I’d like to think some more about this. Perhaps there is some tesuji which would enable me to heighten the severity of my attack.


uranther, I need to think some more on my next move, so I will make my move tomorrow.
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.
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illluck
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Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther

Post by illluck »

P4 is dangerous:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O 3 1 . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . 6 2 X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O 5 X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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The Intrepid
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Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther

Post by The Intrepid »

I had a bit of a think. I no longer like my former idea of playing P4. The reason I was suggesting it in the first place is because this is what I was calculating a month ago at the restaurant. However, having thought about the position some more, P4 does not seem ambitious enough. I think I can achieve quite a bit more by playing either Q6 or S6. I am currently trying to decide which of these moves to play. I am leaning toward Q6. I'll post some variations and my overall plan later today.
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.
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The Intrepid
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Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther

Post by The Intrepid »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Explanation will appear below shortly.
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.
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The Intrepid
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Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther

Post by The Intrepid »

Overall Plan:

1. attack Black’s right group, kill it, win; if not,
2. attack right group, make it live inside thereby building moyo in the center and eliminating the possibility of the two weak black groups connecting to one another; if not,
3. attack right group, try to make moves, such as the following, in sente:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O W . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . W W O X . W . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Regardless of which of the above scenarios comes about (if any), keep sente to attack the black group on top--probably by playing O15:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



From there:
4. kill the top group, win; if not,
5. deny top group access to the center and make useful moves, such as the following (especially the white stone with the triangle), in sente:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . W . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . O . . W . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O Q . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . W . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . W W O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In any case, keep sente. Then,

6. invade black moyo on the left, preferably without strengthening black too much in the lower left; otherwise, white might get compensation in the form of an easy invasion into white’s moyo on the bottom.


Counting to the first order of magnitude:
To get a feel for who is currently ahead in the game, one can do the following: assume that both players convert their moyos into territory, that nothing dies (except two black stones at Q3 and Q4), and that neither player makes any territory in the center. This leads to a diagram such as the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . O . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O O . . . O . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X X . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X X . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O X O X . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O X X X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O O . . . X X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . . O O O |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X X X X |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . O O . X O . X X |
$$ | . . . X . . O O O O O . . O O X O O O |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In this diagram, the score is approximately B=~75 points vs. W=~65points. Thus, White is trailing Black only by approximately 10 points. Given that White has sente, that Black still has two week groups which are under attack, that White can invade left moyo in several places, and that white might get to build some territory in the center, my overall assessment of the position is that White is doing well and may soon gain a noticeable advantage, depending on what happens on the right and at the top.


Comments regarding :w1::
Despite spending more time thinking about the position, I still can’t decide whether the move I played, Q6, is better or worse than S6. I decided to play Q6 because S6 forces Black to go into the center, while Q6 gives Black a hard choice of whether to live in the center or on the side of the board. After WS6, I would expect Black to exchange 1 for 2 and then, possibly, play 3 and 5 (there are many alternatives, however, and it is not clear to me which of them is the best):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . 4 O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 1 O W . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O 2 X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In this position, if Black lives, White will not get any territory in the middle and his bottom right corner might come under attack, but he might gain additional strength in the center to use against the top Black group or against Black’s moyo on the left.

By contrast, after Q6, if Black responds at S6, White will play P6:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 2 W O 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The stone at P6 cuts off three Black stones, it helps to build moyo in the middle, and it makes it harder for Black to create eyes in the center. I would be satisfied with this outcome.

If Black plays P6 instead, trying to live in the center as before, White will respond with S6:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 1 W O 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I can’t quite decide if having the Black stone at P6 rather than Q6 is better for White or not. On the one hand, with P6 intersection occupied, Black cannot use it to make an eye there. On the other hand, on P6, the stone is closer to the center so it may prove more useful in the fight to come. Time will tell. I got to say, though, I am really excited at the prospect of the complications that are about to ensue--perfect position to have for a game with unlimited time. :D
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.
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uranther
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Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther

Post by uranther »

The restaurant decor matched the relaxed evening of go and butter tea. Each table was unique, with walls separating the booths, and dim lighting throughout. I remember there being only a few other patrons. We setup The Intrepid's magnetic goban on two tables and got to fighting!

The butter tea was interesting and not unpalatable -- an acquired taste. Our friend detested its ingestion (he once tried butter tea thinking it was Indian masala chai tea), arguing that butter has no place in tea. Tibetan butter tea is made from boiling tea leaves and adding yak butter and salt. The butter is the main ingredient because it provides a high amount of caloric energy; it suits the high altitude and the Tibetans' nomadic lifestyle. The butter also helps prevent chapped lips. (source: Wikipedia)

Another staple of the Tibetan diet is tsampa which is made from roasted barley flour and butter tea. The ingredients are gently mixed in a bowl until a dough consistency is reached. The dough is eaten unbaked, chased with more butter tea -- providing the necessary calories and complex carbs to be roaming about with yaks. (source: Wikipedia) I would have liked to try it, but I didn't see it on the menu :sad:.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . 2 . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc First thoughts on moves in the lower right corner
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . b 1 O c . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O d X O e X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . a X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Unfortunately, I played S5 rather hastily. It looked cool, maybe even a killing move; however, I neglected to heed the proverb, "Don't go fishing while your house is on fire". :w1: immediately points out my thin shape; now the P5 group is struggling to connect to the oddly-shaped Q7 group, and S5 is too soon. Tenuki would be bad because this corner is very urgent -- if I don't move white can take the whole corner and some of the side. My best strategy is to fix my shape while poking at White's shape.

I first looked at the cutting move, e, but it leads nowhere and my P5 group is killed. Likewise, Black b, c, and d are no good because of the cut at P4. The Q3 and Q4 black stones cannot get enough liberties and is surrounded by white.

Connecting at Black a looks possible because of the attachment at O2. White would probably play x instead of y to avoid a complicated fight, and I still won't have enough eye space. Despite the attachment at O2, I think connecting at P4 is too passive and will die.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Connect, and die?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . 2 X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . x O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . y 6 . 4 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The game move, :b2:, attempts to cut White's knight move at N5 & O3 while protecting the cut at P4. It allows for miai at Black a and b.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Fighting spirit?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . b 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . a 2 . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White b is most likely because it keeps me separated. White will probably follow with :w5:. If I connect at :b6:, I get surrounded like so:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Fail
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O 5 X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . 7 4 2 6 X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . 9 8 O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


A ko at P4 is possible, shown below. If :w5:, I could try to fight the ko with a, b, or c but the liberty shortage on the Q3 and Q4 stones is too detrimental. I think extending at d gives me a decent chance to make life on the side.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White has strong local ko threats and threats against the Q7 group, while his own groups are solid enough to not be worth a whole corner. :white: picnic ko?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O 5 X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . b 4 2 . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . a O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . d . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



White a and b below are possible but seem to let me off easy.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Other white possibilities do not seem as harsh.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . 4 2 . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O b X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


S5 might come in handy in the coming fight as a threat to cut at R5. It might have been more timely if played after :b2:: fixing my weakness before attacking.

I look forward to Intrepid's next move :rambo:
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Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther

Post by The Intrepid »

Here I was thinking to myself that I would be the only one writing about butter tea and, then, uranther comes out swinging out of the blue. I see what you did there. Battle commences in full force--on all the fronts. :tmbup:

uranther's move is a bit unexpected. My first feeling is that I can punish his move directly by playing 3:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . 2 . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'll think some more about this. Perhaps I'm missing something.
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.
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The Intrepid
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Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther

Post by The Intrepid »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . 2 . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Unless I am missing something very fundamental, :w3: is the only move to play. This move separates Black stones, forcing uranther to try to save three--not two--weak groups at once. Worst case scenario is that his bottom group lives (although I do not see a way for it to do so), but I get massive strength with which to attack the remaining two weak groups in return. Let's see what uranther had in mind when he played :b2:.
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.
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Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther

Post by The Intrepid »

While uranther is thinking, I'd like to show an interesting defensive idea for Black.

What if Black tried the following?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . 8 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . 4 O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 6 X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 O 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:b4: and :b8: seek to take advantage of White's weak cutting stones and of White’s bad aji in the top right group. Specifically, White must not play Q11 or P12, for Black will either capture the cutting stones or squeeze White as follows:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm9 Prisoners: :b2:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . 4 O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X 3 C O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 1 2 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


and then,

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm13 Prisoners: :b2:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . 6 . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . X O 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O 1 O 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . X O X 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In this position, Black got to reinforce both of his weak groups, gained some additional territory, and even reduced White's territory for free. Thus, White would do well to resign here--out of shame, if for no other reason.

Playing P13 would be a much better try for White:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm9 Prisoners: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X 6 X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O M . . 4 3 1 O 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . 8 5 X 2 X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 X Q . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O ? ? ? X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . ? ? ? O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In this diagram, White has no stones in the shaded area and Black has the cutting point at K13 to aim at. Therefore, the top Black group seems to be out of danger. Similarly, the right group should be secure as well, given that it now has an eye at P11 and that White has no stones in the shaded area. Perhaps White can still get some useful moves in sente by attacking the two groups, but Black should be satisfied with this result.

Thankfully for White, there is a tesuji at Q9:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm9 Prisoners: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Now, either

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm10 Prisoners: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 2 4 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . X O X 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


or (which is worse)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm10 Prisoners: :b2:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X 1 X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O C O 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In either case, Black would not solve his problems this way.

Thus, even though this defensive idea has a refutation, it should nevertheless be kept in mind. There could be variations where this idea works. Perhaps Black should not play :b2: at P6 but at O10 straight away.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . 2 O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Had uranther played this way, I would need to consider carefully whether to go for this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm3 Prisoners: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . 2 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 5 7 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . X O X 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


or for this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . 2 O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.
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uranther
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Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther

Post by uranther »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . 4 2 . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Following from my previous analysis. Black N3 looked possible but doesn't seem so great because of the cut. Would be nice if I can kill the White O3 stone.
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The Intrepid
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Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther

Post by The Intrepid »

I think everything is under control on the bottom side of the board. The Black stones die there straight up or I get a huge wall facing the center (which means easier attacking and lots of central territory). On BN3, I was going to play Q2.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . 4 O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


On BR2, I intended to play S2 and then either a, b, c, or maybe even d depending on Black's response.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . b X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . c O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . a 4 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I need to think some more about my move. I am choosing between a, b, and c.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . b 4 X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So far, c looks promising.
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.
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The Intrepid
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Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther

Post by The Intrepid »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . 4 X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I decided to play this move because I did not like the consequences of Black playing there. Everything is still fine, I think. That said, I should have been calculating these variations long before now--when I played :w3:. In my thirst to play a "super severe move of great justice," as someone aptly put it on this forum once, I failed to take the requisite amount of time to peer deeply enough into the position. I also failed to consider the merits of the alternative moves. For instance, I should have pondered 3 at S6:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O M X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . 2 . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This would have applied more pressure on the right Black group and would have practically eliminated the aji of the cut at R5 (BR2 would not be sente, as it is now, for instance). Also, I should have given more thought to the simple reinforcing move N4:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . 3 2 . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Sure, this would have meant that Black got a few points for free, but playing this way would also not entail any additional risk on my part. Anyhow, I think what I played is fine--I just wish I spent more time thinking about it.
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.
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The Intrepid
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Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther

Post by The Intrepid »

A Daring Challenge to the Spectators and Go Pro-wannabes:
Have you ever watched a basketball game and said to yourself: "man, if they paid me this much money, I'd play just as well as the lot of them"? If so, do you think the same applies to Go? Do you think, if someone handed you a million bucks, you could tenuki as hard as Lee Changho does and still get away with it? Could a large monetary reward infuse you with the will and the skill to find a lengthy string of tesujis to save a group that by right and by law should be dead?

Well, here's the thing: I don't have jack to give you. ;-) Nevertheless, you could hope to get something just as valuable instead: the love and respect of legions of lifein19x19.com forum visitors! All you need to do is find an ironclad way to make the marked Black group live (or at least a part of it) after White builds an impenetrable wall on the outside and plays :wt: at O15. So far, my attempts have failed. (Man, I wish somebody would infuse me with a million bucks to help with the task!) Can you do better? :mrgreen:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Black to live
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . B . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O B . . . B . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O B . . Q . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . B . B B O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . B . . . B . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . B O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O O O O O O O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.
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illluck
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Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther

Post by illluck »

Didn't read too carefully (since there are too many possible responses), but below is first instinct:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black to live
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O 1 B . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O B . . . B . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O B . . Q . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . B . B B O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . B . . . B . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . B O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O O O O O O O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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