A Go variant

[Shaddy]

I made this up a while ago and there's a question I never managed to answer. The variant is this: Black gets n handicap stones (should probably not be connected in large clumps or walls). White gets to make 2 moves every 5 turns. What is the n so that this game is roughly even? Playing the game with an AGA 6-7d (with me as white), giving 25 handicap was not enough.

I might be convinced to play a Malkovich of this.

[skydyr]

Is this two moves in the sense that white plays, black passes, white plays; or in the sense that white places two stones which are then resolved as one move (being able to kill a group with only two one-space eyes by playing both in one move)?

Assuming the first, as the second seems incredibly difficult, it seems like it would be good at encouraging thick and solid play from black if the extra moves were more spaced out, and punishing and move to run, since black could be cut so easily. As a rough guess, though, I think a good place to start might be one handicap stone per extra move, but since placing the stones first is an advantage, maybe one for every two extra moves? So for a game between even players, call it 25-30 for a game with between 250 and 300 moves.

You'll note that I have carefully avoided trying this variant out, lest experience taint my pure and pristine formula.

Incidentally, how badly did you lose with 25?

[illluck]

Is this two moves in the sense that white plays, black passes, white plays; or in the sense that white places two stones which are then resolved as one move (being able to kill a group with only two one-space eyes by playing both in one move)?

Assuming the first, as the second seems incredibly difficult, it seems like it would be good at encouraging thick and solid play from black if the extra moves were more spaced out, and punishing and move to run, since black could be cut so easily. As a rough guess, though, I think a good place to start might be one handicap stone per extra move, but since placing the stones first is an advantage, maybe one for every two extra moves? So for a game between even players, call it 25-30 for a game with between 250 and 300 moves.

You'll note that I have carefully avoided trying this variant out, lest experience taint my pure and pristine formula.

Incidentally, how badly did you lose with 25?

Two errors in this:

1. moves in the beginning are not necessarily worth more than middlegame - an extra move could be worth significantly more by itself (not to mention that the threat is also quite significant - opponent will be forced to effectively pass if there's a major weakness that has to be patched).

2. If you use 1 for every two extra moves, then it should be 12-15 because 5 turns is 10 moves.

Edit: p.s. Shaddy won the game (he was white). I would think it be easier to shift the number of moves needed until an extra move rather than add more stones. A wild guess would be to have 17 stones in exchange for giving an extra move every 8-10 turns.

[Shaddy]

I think we played it as 'black plays, white passes, black plays'.

[skydyr]

1. moves in the beginning are not necessarily worth more than middlegame - an extra move could be worth significantly more by itself (not to mention that the threat is also quite significant - opponent will be forced to effectively pass if there's a major weakness that has to be patched).

2. If you use 1 for every two extra moves, then it should be 12-15 because 5 turns is 10 moves.

Edit: p.s. Shaddy won the game (he was white). I would think it be easier to shift the number of moves needed until an extra move rather than add more stones. A wild guess would be to have 17 stones in exchange for giving an extra move every 8-10 turns.

Regarding the value of moves, I was thinking in terms of the endgame, as one wants to play the more valuable moves before the less, so clearly later in the endgame moves should be worth less than earlier in it, accounting for sente and followups. Certainly at times the value of the moves goes both up and down, but I was under the impression that you could extrapolate back from that to the beginning.

I understood the extra moves to mean that every 5th time white moved, white played a 6th move as compared to the 5 black played in a cycle of 11 moves. And now I'm wondering where I got to 50 from.

Actually, I'm starting to wonder if I read the original post much less closely than I thought I did. Oh well.

[jts]

The notable thing is that every time white gets a double move, he can play a forcing move and then immediately exploit the threat. Thus the average value of the double move will be vastly higher than the average value of 30 moves.

[hyperpape]

I have heard of players playing "dagger go", where the weaker player gets three daggers, or chances to play two moves in a row (unlike Shaddy's variant, they could be used at any time). They estimated that it was worth more than 9 stones, so long as the weaker player wasn't fooled into wasting the moves early.

I want to see this done as a Malkovich. My gut reaction is that 25 handicap should be enough, but the guy who's played it says that I'm wrong.