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 Post subject: Leaning attack
Post #1 Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:01 am 
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If I understood it correctly:
- Leaning attacks are used to build strength (a wall) by leaning on a group.
- That strength is usually applied to attack a different group or to enclose an area.
- The group that's been leaned on becomes stronger (usually by turning from framework to territory).

So, my problem is:
If one uses a leaning attack to build strength to attack another group, the leaning attack itself must be bigger than the other group's death or it should be ignored to save the original group. As strong players almost never ignore leaning attacks, I must be underestimating the price of ignoring them.

When I'm chasing a group, whenever I think "I should do a leaning attack now, as told several times", I never see a place where my attack wouldn't be ignored.

Thus, my conclusion is that my inability of using leaning attacks comes from not knowing what to do with an ignored one. In the games I watch, played by very strong players, they never ignore leaning attacks, so they must be more urgent than how they look in my mind.

So, what I think I need is to watch games where a group was being chased, the chaser did a leaning attack to build a wall, etc. and the defender decided to ignore the leaning and save the group.

I need to see how to profit, not from a working leaning attack and the continuing main chase but from an ignored leaning attack.

Do you have any examples (on yours or other's games)?

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 Post subject: Re: Leaning attack
Post #2 Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:39 am 
Judan

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B execution after tenuki
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . 2 . . .
$$ | . . X . 1 O . O O
$$ | . . . X . X . X .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


White has ignored the last move of Black's leaning attack, so that Black gets the follow-up threat execution 1-2. It is big for these reasons:

1) The white group has less than 2 eyes and so Black can profit from attacking it.

2) Black's shape has become stronger, which is worth something.

3) The corner endgame options have been improved in Black's favour, which is worth something.

4) White's territory has been reduced a bit.

Altogether, the four major kinds of local losses amount to a significant total local loss for White.

If you had noticed only (4), then you could not understand the total loss. (4) is the least important local loss.

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 Post subject: Re: Leaning attack
Post #3 Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 1:27 am 
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I'll take a stab at trying to answer your question.

A leaning attack is typically a contact play against a side group, and the follow up will usually have significant consequences either for the life and death status or territory value of the group.

Typically we attack not with the intent to kill groups but to make profit from the attacking stones. Two contact moves against a group should be enough compensation to consider your attack a success.

If you determine that you must kill the group you are targeting in order to win the game, then you can't use indirect tactics such as leaning attacks unless you are certain they will be answered.

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 Post subject: Re: Leaning attack
Post #4 Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:47 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
Altogether, the four major kinds of local losses amount to a significant total local loss for White.

If you had noticed only (4), then you could not understand the total loss. (4) is the least important local loss.


But if that tenuki allowed w to run away with an unsettled group... I think what I'm asking is: "Is it an acceptable result of chasing an unsettled group, to just get two moves (being the first very severe) on another group?"

If so, shouldn't one try to profit the maximum possible from chasing that group (profit from the chasing moves themselves) and only when there are no more chasing moves, lean on a close-by group?

My problem is starting with a large framework that invites an invasion, being invaded, chasing that invasion away and then feeling underpaid when the end of it all is just two moves on another group. So, I chase that invading group as long as possible, profitting a little with every step, until it escapes.

I think I should lean on other groups at some point between the invasion and the escape, to get both the profit of chasing and the profit of my opponent ignoring the leaning, but I don't understand how to find that moment.

Is there any rule of thumb/proverb about that? Something like "lean when the next move would be the last before freedom."

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 Post subject: Re: Leaning attack
Post #5 Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:04 am 
Honinbo

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A nice page on the leaning attack: http://senseis.xmp.net/?Leaning :)

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 Post subject: Re: Leaning attack
Post #6 Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:58 am 
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You should post some examples for discussion. A leaning attack is normally an attachment against a second group in the midst of an attack on a first group. In other words it is typically the "2" in a "1-2 punch" situation. It is difficult to make general statements about it.

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 Post subject: Re: Leaning attack
Post #7 Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:08 am 
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ez4u wrote:
You should post some examples for discussion. A leaning attack is normally an attachment against a second group in the midst of an attack on a first group. In other words it is typically the "2" in a "1-2 punch" situation. It is difficult to make general statements about it.


I play in DGS, so the time between finding my problems in a game and being able to post it here is a bit longer (I wouldn't ask tips about a game I'm still playing).

I am playing at this very moment a game where I specifically had problems finding when and where to lean. We both play quite fast so I think I'll be able to post it in a few days.

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 Post subject: Re: Leaning attack
Post #8 Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:51 am 
Judan

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Alguien wrote:
But if that tenuki allowed w to run away with an unsettled group...


Why if; of course White can defend while tenukiing.

Quote:
"Is it an acceptable result of chasing an unsettled group, to just get two moves (being the first very severe) on another group?"


There is no general answer. The result can be superior, equal or inferior. One needs to judge both the leaning and the direct attacking / defense sequence(s).

Quote:
If so, shouldn't one try to profit the maximum possible from chasing that group (profit from the chasing moves themselves) and only when there are no more chasing moves, lean on a close-by group?


In general, the answer is: be flexible.

Quote:
My problem is starting with a large framework that invites an invasion, being invaded, chasing that invasion away and then feeling underpaid when the end of it all is just two moves on another group.


See above.

Quote:
So, I chase that invading group as long as possible,


You are being inflexible.

Quote:
I think I should lean on other groups at some point between the invasion and the escape, to get both the profit of chasing and the profit of my opponent ignoring the leaning, but I don't understand how to find that moment.


1) By applying general principles for playing elsewhere (see Joseki 2 Strategy chapters 3.8 - 3.11).

2) By considering variations, judging the results after each (see chapters 4 + 8, note the possibilites of doing local or global positional judgements) and comparing the judgements.

Quote:
Is there any rule of thumb/proverb about that?


There are better things than such: principles and methods, see before. There is, of course, much more because further principles exist for the middle game and specifically for leaning fights. They need to be studied in other books. Joseki 3 Dictionary chapter 2.8.3 gives at least the basic hints. Summary: there can be peaceful solutions for mutual group settling, fighting solutions related to making more territory / influence / attacking potential than the opponent or temporary or permanent exchange solutions.

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 Post subject: Re: Leaning attack
Post #9 Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:07 am 
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Another thing to think about is the timing of your leaning attack. Suppose that you play several chasing moves to profit, then you plan some moves to start a leaning attack. At this point, because their group is so heavy from having to run a lot, ignoring your leaning attack makes more sense. However, if you had started the leaning attack when their group was only a few floating stones, maybe followup from the leaning attack is more close in value to the chasing moves, and so they will not tenuki.

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 Post subject: Re: Leaning attack
Post #10 Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:03 am 
Judan

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Alguien wrote:
In the games I watch, played by very strong players, they never ignore leaning attacks, so they must be more urgent than how they look in my mind.


There is an element of selection bias here: if ignoring the leaning attack was a good move because the follow-up if ignored was not very big then they probably won't have leaned in the first place. It is quite possible that in the games of weaker players there will be inappropriate leanings in which tenuki is best.

As an example of this, here is a current OGS game of mine (I'm white, http://www.online-go.com/games/board.php?boardID=347746). With 1 I jumped out with my 3 stones, trying to make shape for sabaki in black's area. Black 2 is a sort of leaning attack: if I ignore it r7 is rather annoying. However, a more typical leaning attack would be the contact move of q6: as it touches my stone it takes a liberty so is a lot harder to tenuki. I considered tenuki-ing p6 to help my centre group but in the end decided to take profit at q8, daring black to do his worse. Black then leaned again at p8 and I decided to ignore and help my group run and make shape at l8 and so on. Black did get some profit from 10 (I blocked at r7, he ataris at q9 and I connect), but I don't think this was so big for black and white gained from this exchange.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Ignoring the lean
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X X X X . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O O . . X . . X X O O O . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . O , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . X X X |
$$ | . O X X O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X |
$$ | . O O X X X O . . . . . . . . . . O O |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . , 9 . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . 5 . . . 4 3 . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X O . . . . . . . 0 . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . 1 . . . 2 . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O . . . 7 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X X , . . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . . X . 8 . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Instead of leaning at 4 I think black should maybe have played at l8 himself as this combines a cap with attacking my shape (it aims at the k6 cut). If white runs out at j6 then black k7 cuts something off.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Attack first
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X X X X . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O O . . X . . X X O O O . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . O , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . X X X |
$$ | . O X X O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X |
$$ | . O O X X X O . . . . . . . . . . O O |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . 4 . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . 1 . . . 2 . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X X , . . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . . X . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


There is also an element of fighting spirit at play. If you ignore the lean to secure your group then you lose elsewhere from ignoring the lean. Maybe you save your group but you lost too many points so you lose the game from playing such a compromise. If you answer the leaning and it is still not 100% clear your group is dead then you are gambling on surviving the attack after the lean, with the cash in the bank from answering the leaning so you might have a 50% chance of losing by resignation versus a 95% chance of losing by 10 points.

Alguien wrote:
If one uses a leaning attack to build strength to attack another group, the leaning attack itself must be bigger than the other group's death or it should be ignored to save the original group.


Indeed, but in Go, unlike in life, death is not always certain. Using another OGS game of mine to illustrate, this time I was black and the one doing the leaning. With 1 I leaned on the k3 stone and white answered all my moves. I pushed white on the 4th line, something you usually don't want to do, giving him a lot of territory. This cut off the central group in sente, which I then capped at 7. I remember at the time I was rather surprised white answered my leaning, I thought it was very risky for white and his central group would very likely die. In the game (which was rather exciting! http://www.online-go.com/games/board.php?boardID=317813) I did manage to kill it 80 moves later but it was harder than I expected.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Lean then kill?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . . . . . . 7 . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . X . , O . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 5 3 . X . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . 6 2 1 . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O 4 . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Alguien wrote:
I need to see how to profit, not from a working leaning attack and the continuing main chase but from an ignored leaning attack.

What I expected when I leaned was that white would have to tenuki to save the central group, resulting in the compromise as below. It should be fairly obvious where my profit is on the lower side. I don't know why white answered the lean, maybe he underestimated the danger to the central group, maybe he was motivated by fighting spirit. Quite probably he was influenced by the fact we have played 20 games together and I have won 19 (but some very close) so if he goes for a simple compromise it is pretty much certain that I will win the game by a small margin. A better way to increase the chances he wins the game is to take the money on the lower side and gamble the result of the game on a huge tsumego.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Compromise
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . X . , O . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 4 . 2 O O O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 3 O 5 . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


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 Post subject: Re: Leaning attack
Post #11 Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:31 am 
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I'll use your games as examples of my line of thought. (I'm playing several DGS games where I'm trying to find situations to use leaning that I'll post as they finish)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Ignoring the lean
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X X X X . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O O . . X . . X X O O O . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . O , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . X X X |
$$ | . O X X O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X |
$$ | . O O X X X O . . . . . . . . . . O O |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X O . . . . . . . c d . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . 1 . . . a b O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X X , . . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . . X . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


A: I don't usually think of leaning with a cap, I'll try from now on. However, the follow up at D is quite hard to read for me.
B: I usually think about this one. I don't usually play it because after b plays at C I have to defend at A and I give up sente.
C: I read this as C, B, A, ... sente lost.

Where is my mistake? (it's not the point, but I think I'd have played j9, planning to put stones between the two w groups next.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Lean then kill?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . X . , O . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 5 3 . X . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . 6 2 1 . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O 4 . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In my mind I may have predicted this.

However, my reaction to that reading would be "If I give him this much, I'm pretty much forced to kill."

I think that's the essence of my problem. I don't lean because I imagine as the two possible futures:
1 - He tenukis and escapes while I get just a little benefit from the lean.
2 - He gets cash off my lean and then I fail to kill.


I have one example game of mine:

Just two points of interest:
- After move 71 I was looking for places to lean on.
- On 76 I do something like kind of a lean and my opponent does respond. However, I now think it was too far away and the entire attack failed not much later.


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 Post subject: Re: Leaning attack
Post #12 Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:46 pm 
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The problem is that you automatically think of extending when your opponent plays hane. Usually it should be a counter-hane:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Ignoring the lean
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X X X X . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O O . . X . . X X O O O . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . O , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . X X X |
$$ | . O X X O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X |
$$ | . O O X X X O . . . . . . . . . . O O |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X O . . . . . . 4 3 . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . 1 . . . . 2 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X X , . . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . . X . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


or this way

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Ignoring the lean
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X X X X . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O O . . X . . X X O O O . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . O , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . X X X |
$$ | . O X X O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X |
$$ | . O O X X X O . . . . . . . . . . O O |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . 6 7 . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X O . . . . . . . 2 5 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . 1 . . . 4 3 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X X , . . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . . X . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Leaning attack
Post #13 Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:13 pm 
Judan

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Alguien wrote:
I'll use your games as examples of my line of thought. (I'm playing several DGS games where I'm trying to find situations to use leaning that I'll post as they finish)

B: I usually think about this one. I don't usually play it because after b plays at C I have to defend at A and I give up sente.

Where is my mistake?


When leaning, it is a common idea that you can sacrifice some of the stones to take sente, so you can counter hane rather than just nobi. Sacrifice the initial leaning stone and get more stones in the important place: namely separating the white central group. With the atari at 8 maybe white doesn't have to connect but it's pretty big to ignore (rather than take black can play atari to right of 7 and either get a double ponnuki or break the side in sente (as corner needs to live at q2). If white does connect then black plays l8.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Counter hane and sacrifice
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X X X X . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O O . . X . . X X O O O . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . O , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . X X X |
$$ | . O X X O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X |
$$ | . O O X X X O . . . . . . . . . . O O |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X O . . . . . . 4 3 . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . 1 . . 6 5 2 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O . . . . . . 8 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X X , . . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . . X . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Another idea is to not sacrifice and take gote to build a strong shape. This lets white jump in the centre but you can still attack and there is some bad aji on the right (e.g. a-g, white can play d at f but that means black reduces white a lot in sente and his endgame at q2 then s1 becomes much bigger now that white has those false eyes on the 1st line.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Counter hane and no sacrifice
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X X X X . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O O . . X . . X X O O O . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . O , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . X X X |
$$ | . O X X O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X |
$$ | . O O X X X O . . . . . . . . . . O O |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . a b . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . 9 . . . . 7 g . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X O . . . . . 8 4 3 e . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . 1 . . . 5 2 O f . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O . . . . . . . 6 d c . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X X , . . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . . X . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Alguien wrote:

However, my reaction to that reading would be "If I give him this much, I'm pretty much forced to kill."



Yes, I did a lot of reading and thinking before I gave him such a lot. It is a gamble, but gambling is fun ;-) .

Alguien wrote:

I think that's the essence of my problem. I don't lean because I imagine as the two possible futures:
1 - He tenukis and escapes while I get just a little benefit from the lean.
2 - He gets cash off my lean and then I fail to kill.


In that game option 1 didn't worry me as it's a lot of profit. 2 did worry me, so I tried not to fail! :D

P.S. Ninja'd!

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 Post subject: Re: Leaning attack
Post #14 Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:02 pm 
Lives in gote

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Ok I see the seed of the mistake now.

I did force my go eye to ignore that the contact wasn't the best local option but I didn't even think about keeping that safety mechanism off for the following moves.

Or, changing the point of view, I thought about leaning as "the leaning stone" instead of "the leaning sequence".

Thank you for the help.

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