The Go Scene

[hailthorn011]

Can Go increase in popularity? No doubt. Look at the huge boost Hikaru no Go provided.

I'm siding with CSamurai mostly here. Go will never be Starcraft 2, but I think there is most absolutely a market waiting to be tapped. Turning up at PAX, or Comicon, or a whole bunch of nerd conventions with a few cheap sets and a few players I think is a great idea. Important for those events is sexy stylish banners and things that draw people's eye, and badges or some equivalent to give away free so that at some point a few days later that person can go "Oh yeah, Go, I remember that, was kinda fun" before throwing it in the trash.

Commentaries of top games also, great idea - the existing ones (such as Bat's) appeal largely to the Go community, but I think that is at least in part because the nature of the commentary is aimed at people that not only know the game but play it to a reasonable level. I look through the attendance list to his lectures and see the majority of players between 4k and 3d.

Who's out there doing Day[9] style commentaries for the masses? No-one as far as I know, which I think is a shame. I don't play or follow SC2 (although SC and SC:BW I was into because I actually had time then to get into video games), but I still really like Day[9]'s commentaries. I watched the whole way through a 2 hour episode of his talking about his own history and SC career before becoming virtually the face of SC2 commentary, and you know what? I enjoyed it, I was moved, and I was inspired. I don't give a monkey's about being good at SC2, but his story touched on all those things that people love: the underdog, the adversity, the hard times, the funny times, the outright successes, and you feel his past. He teared up _at least_ twice about the fabulous support he got from his folks and you what, I connected.

When I see a Go commentary, it's normally a dry analysis of moves and variations. Don't get me wrong, I like those, but I'm a low dan level Go player, I'm already in "fascination zone" for that kind of thing, but what's wrong with "Black's looking at killing these White stones over here, which'll be game ending if he can't get out. I can't see how he can survive this onslaught - wow, what a nice move, Black can't kill him now, the game's swinging the other way!". Good commentators don't earn their reputation by knowing lots and jumping in on exciting games to explain what's going on, they earn their reputation with generating excitement and interest out of nowhere, throwing in amusing anecdotes, and delivering all around entertainment.

I look at Let's Play videos on some of the video games I do play for relaxing, and again, the good ones are ones I find enjoyable and funny as I play through. Particularly ones with more people (such as http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZnzI5WrIC0) make for actual entertainment. If you leave a game video having had fun, you think fondly of the game almost instinctively, and you can get caught up in the interest whether you intended to or not. Go has a pretty broad ranging community if I'm honest, and I think it would be relatively easy for people who enjoy a good video to dive in.

Hikaru No Go didn't succeed because it had a good representation of Go. It succeeded because it created a character that a large proportion of its audience could relate to, and had enough drama to make people who knew nothing follow it. By the end, people wanted a part of it.

I agree very much with cSamurai that existing Go promotional efforts feel mistargeted and misplanned. I do suspect that there is a market not well tapped, and I do think the right sort of campaigns really will bring people in. I'm not pointing fingers, and I'd even be very happy doing some joint video commentary with someone, but for someone to start making enough progress for notoriety requires a very long term commitment, and, as cSamurai says, requires the right kind of personality to do it.

As players of the game, we are essentially ambassadors of the game. If we all do our part, Go can garner a larger social awareness level than it currently has. But instead of complaining about the lack of growth and the recent stagnation, we should see these as signs to do even more. Not that I'm in any position to preach. I know I don't do enough.

But the fact remains that we as players of this game ultimately control its destiny. As I've said, if Go isn't a mainstream commodity now we should place it in the realms that will get it attention. Maybe we need another Hikaru no Go to spur growth again.

+1

Interesting points made. I got into Starcraft 2 a month or so ago, and one of the first things I did was begin watching professional matches (I quickly came to favor Terrans, and so I rooted for ByuN_Prime). One thing I noticed as a casual observer is that the terminology sometimes went right over my head. Some concepts, invasion techniques, ect. all confounded me. Yet when I watched the live broadcast of the Honinbo title series between Yamashita Keigo and Iyama Yuta, I was able to follow most of it even though they were speaking a different language!

Of course this is simply a result of me knowing more about Go than Starcraft. But the one thing the GSL commentators did that the Go commentators did not do was inject excitement into the game. Obviously Go a quiet game. The only sound you typically hear are the stones being played and the clock. But the commentary should breathe life into the broadcast. If a big capture happens, let it be known something BIG happened. It's essentially what you pointed out though.

Ex:

Bill The Excited Guy: OH MY GOD!! HE'S IN DANGER OF LOSING 10 STONES!!

Joe The Unimpressed Guy: Relax Bill. You're going to bust an artery. He's not in danger if White simply plays P4.

Bill: Oh, good point. But OH MY GOD HE DIDN'T DO IT! NOW BLACK WILL SURELY CAPTURE!!!

Joe: Wrong again Bill. See this move serves a similar...

Anyway, you get the point. I'm not saying one has to be stupid or anything. But injecting excitement via commentary is what makes things seem exciting. Look at Madden. He was a brilliant commentator because he could break complex strategies down so much that even casual fans could understand. And the best part? He made you excited!

I think if you inject more excitement into the game, more people will be interested as a result. Or maybe I'm wrong. But I know this is one thing that gets me interested.

[snorri]

I have to confess I didn't know about SC2 until I read about it on L19. Or maybe it was GD. I don't recall. The information I read was interesting but did not convert me, because I was never a big video game or RPG player. But I know something about what it is now. My perspective is probably warped as my only source of information about SC2 is L19. Probably everyone who reads L19 regularly has seen the same threads that mention SC2 and has at least that minimal level of awareness.

I can make almost the same claim about WoW, but that's older and I did hear about that a couple of times outside of go forums. But it's fair to say that 98% of my knowledge of WoW comes from L19.

So do people who frequent SC2 forums all know about go?

[SoDesuNe]

SC2 is ephemeral and generates a lot of interest simply by being new. Who will care about it in 10 years? (Some people probably will. But the community will be small and moribund.)

I don't think SC 2 is that ephemeral. Sure Go is way longer around, but ever since SC 1 and then Broodwar were released, this game grew in my opinion at least as big as Go in Korea and already had its solid impact in the west. They were tournaments back then and as far as I know you could already win prize money. Now some fourteen years later, there is StarCraft 2 and there is such a big industry (playing, casting, streaming and !sponsoring!) that evolves around it. Go can not even dream about this attention and possibility in the west by now.

People cared about Broodwar for ten years and with Blizzard's plan of releasing every story part on its own with some modifications to multiplayer, I think SC 2 will be around for at least the same time.

Maybe Go will still be there in the end while StarCraft will not, the question still remains if Go will ever have at least half the success and media attention (even in its own niche) than StarCraft 2 has now? In my opinion it will not.

I think Go is awefully boring for the average spectator, who does not know the game. Even if he knows the rules, he can't figure out the game. In soccer or football, we all tend to be fans every once in a while if there's for instance the world championships. We might not have a clue either (even if we think otherwise) but we don't need to when watching the game, it almost explains itself.
In Go, even if we have superb commentators (which, for the sake of the argument, talk about Go so that the avergae person, which does not know Go, still understands what is going on), the board, the stones, it's too boring to watch. There does not happen anything for the most time. A board with two-coloured-stones on a big screen - there is no movement, nothing what attracts the average spectator. You can not even put the spectator ahead of the players as you can do for instance in Poker when revealing the cards or in StarCraft 2 when revealing what both players are doing. I could instead take a commentated .sgf and I would not miss a thing compared to the live demonstration. But between reading about soccer or football and watching it, there are worlds inbetween!

Go is lucky if it will become as "big" and known as chess, because that's in my opinion as big as it will possibly get in the west.

[palapiku]

Maybe Go will still be there in the end while StarCraft will not, the question still remains if Go will ever have at least half the success and media attention (even in its own niche) than StarCraft 2 has now? In my opinion it will not.

These facts are related. SC2 is popular because it is new, which is why it will lose popularity rather quickly. (If not 10 years, then let's say 20. Certainly within a generation.)

Ephemeral popularity can give anything a temporary boost, but in the long run it may even be counterproductive:
"For an idea to be fashionable is ominous, since it must afterwards be always old-fashioned." -- George Santayana

This happened with backgammon, for example - in the seventies there was a backgammon fad in the USA that fundamentally died out. Now backgammon is a seventies thing - who would want to play that? Similarly, SC2 will forever stay a "2010s thing" which will make it look rather silly in the 2030s and beyond.

[singular]

On a related note, I think it's exciting the AGA has professionals now, and this should in its own way add to the promotion of weiqi in the West. But even that information is not loud and clear. I mean, I went to the AGA website and couldn't actually find anything about the new pros . . . unless I'm barking up the wrong tree. I don't feel I should have to search on google or use a search function on the AGA website in order to navigate labyrinthine pages. Can't there be a 'professionals' link on the main page? What about some profiles and maybe simple blog entries on when and where they're going to compete?

[Mef]

We might as well be a forum of James Joyce fans, with CSamurai chiding us for failing to spread our favorite books the way that fans of Twilight and Fifty Shades of Grey have spread theirs.

Amusingly, what might be the most effective solution is the same in both cases -- get it taught in schools!

(Alternatively, have it made into a feature film...)

[xed_over]

But even that information is not loud and clear. I mean, I went to the AGA website and couldn't actually find anything about the new pros

I agree. I've been quite annoyed at the lack of information

http://www.usgo.org/aga-professional-system

[Alguien]

You seem to forget the two main advantages go has over most other games.

- It's almost purely conceptual: you can set up a go game with almost no material base.
- It's close to perfection as a game: you can be sure there are no intrinsic flaws you'll discover after a few million games.

I would bet that go is known in a thousand years (and I'm one of those who thinks the world will keep changing faster and faster). I would dare to bet go will exist when the English language is only a historical relic.

Go doesn't compete with videogames because go will always be there. How long can, for example, the US take to have a go world champion? A century? Five? A millenium? Who will remember individual videogames by then?

[hailthorn011]

You seem to forget the two main advantages go has over most other games.

- It's almost purely conceptual: you can set up a go game with almost no material base.
- It's close to perfection as a game: you can be sure there are no intrinsic flaws you'll discover after a few million games.

I would bet that go is known in a thousand years (and I'm one of those who thinks the world will keep changing faster and faster). I would dare to bet go will exist when the English language is only a historical relic.

Go doesn't compete with videogames because go will always be there. How long can, for example, the US take to have a go world champion? A century? Five? A millenium? Who will remember individual videogames by then?

I agree with some of the points of the points you made, but disagree with a few. Firstly, I doubt English will be a historical relic unless some humanity ending cataclysm happens. I only say this because English is spoken all over the world. I'm willing to wager there is at least one person in most countries who knows English. Not that there's anything special about English (as I note in the Langauge Discussion in the off topic session).

And some video games will likely be remembered forever*. Pong. Pacman. Super Mario Bros.

But you're definitely right. Go as a single game will probably outlive the lifespan of almost any video game. But I wonder. 300 years from now will people still be playing Super Mario Bros.? 1000 years? It's possible with computers.

*- If humanity lasts that long, anyway.

[Mef]

- It's close to perfection as a game: you can be sure there are no intrinsic flaws you'll discover after a few million games.

Not to derail the thread, but it depends on what you consider a flaw...

Some would point to these:

Anti-seki
Moonshine life
Basic ko anomalies
Superko anomalies
Eternal life
etc, etc

[Alguien]

I agree with some of the points of the points you made, but disagree with a few. Firstly, I doubt English will be a historical relic unless some humanity ending cataclysm happens.

Ever? I didn't set a time limit for that sentence.

I'm sure we can agree English will not survive math.

I'm saying English won't survive go for similar reasons. Maybe English will live another ten thousand years (I don't think it will really be English by then, just as Spanish isn't Latin).

And some video games will likely be remembered forever*. Pong. Pacman. Super Mario Bros.

We use different concepts of "forever".

When I say "forever" I mean "in a time so ridiculously long that humans will be pure thought beings that travel between dimensions to other universes because this one has stopped existing.".

I don't think those beings will remember Mario Bross. I do think they'll remember how to do square roots and the Pythagoras theorem; and go.

[Alguien]

Not to derail the thread, but it depends on what you consider a flaw...

Some would point to these:

Anti-seki
Moonshine life
Basic ko anomalies
Superko anomalies
Eternal life
etc, etc

Those flaws are minuscule. The flaws that can kill a game are those that make it solvable, unbalanced, or even unplayable once discovered. It's pretty safe to say go doesn't have those. It's pretty risky to say that about any game with less than some millions of games played.

I'm talking about flaws like "no komi for w". That was a pretty huge flaw in go, and how long did it take to be corrected?

[jts]

I'm not even sure no Komi is a flaw, provided you are willing to play sets.

[Nathan]

I agree with the original arguement that there is a huge opportunity for growing support with the current internet era. But understand Go does not have the resources of a Blizzardesque company.

My personal experience with SC2 multiplayer. When I was young i played SC2 with my brother and but had no idea of the strategy just massed units and killed the computer, so when SC2 came out I was excited and they did a great job promoting the ladder. I became interested... stumbled upon Day9 got interested in learning strategy and worked my way up to high diamond leagues and had a good grasp of the strategy. At that point I felt the entire game I was scrambling around the screen at all times and had to be continuously doing stuff with my keyboard and mouse. At this point I said ok I feel I have conquered the strategy of this game enough, so I stopped. Several people I know have similar experiences, so I am assuming this is somewhat normal. Luckily for me I had stumbled upon Go through a conversation about computer science and randomly had an old pente board in my basement.

Ok the point I am stumbling towards is that I believe many of the people who become infactuated with the strategy behind SC2 and enjoy the game are the people who would be naturally inclined to play go. Also go has the added benefit of not requiring a reasonably powerful computer, and crazy mouse keyboard actions at crazy paces that make your mind melt.

Therefore I feel there should be more of an effort from the Go community to focus on these groups either through advertisements on Day9s daily (how expensive can that be?) or some similar approach.

Also side note, Topazg I stumbled upon your website a while back and heard your reviews of some games, and you have the best voice I have ever heard! You should definitely find someone to regularly review games with, I would watch that all day.

[Zombie]

I think CSamurai and topazg hit the nail on the head: What Go needs is streaming. It's not like the Day9 Dailies ever had some megacorp behind them: It was just a good player, excited as hell, in his own room, trying to share the love of the game by game commentary and teaching from the basics. (It did help that early Starcraft 2 was pretty simple metagame-wise)
Apart from the dailies or an equivalent, just have people streaming their own games, some Battousai-style, some just games without commentary. You absolutely can learn a good bit of playing just by watching games - my understanding of SC2 is proof of that. The scientists studying learning in Chess agree as well: If you remember, they concluded we basically have an unconscious valuation bot inside us that after understanding some basics just needs to be fed and that leads to learning.

I learned Starcraft by watching, and while the initial spark came from Hikaru no Go, what I know of Go is pretty much a direct result of being entertained by Battousai's videos. Light analyses, humorous commentary, reasonably paced (roughly Starcrafty) live game records. That is nice. And to whoever said Go is not pretty enough:

http://vimeo.com/37626252

One more thing that dramatically eases learning Starcraft is The Liquidpedia. It's a monstrous information collection with all unit stats laid out cleanly for easy reference, tournament info and summaries and player profiles. Lots and lots of information PRESENTED CLEANLY. We already have an equivalent in Sensei's Library (one of the few places to rival Liquipedia that I have seen), but it needs a bit of a visual makeover. Most important I think is to separate the actual wiki article from the ensuing discussion and addendums more clearly. The top left oddface also needs to have a meeting with the delete button, we need more Kaya, less '95. But the infrastructure and much of the content is there already. This is important and great.

To conclude, I think most of the pieces are already in place: We have Kaya as a pretty UI that doesn't look clunky, twitch.tv to handle streaming, L19 at least as a forum with some membership and knowledge, plus the Malkovich games. We have Sensei's as an information deposit.

The final two pieces that are needed, in my opinion, are polishing those pieces just a bit and getting something like this:
http://www.eventhubs.com/
http://www.teamliquid.net/
It's essentially a news ticker. But it has links to the important things: To the livestreams, to the forums, to the guides. And they put big news items up for big tournaments and the like so you feel something is happening. So some websites, some people streaming, we're done essentially. All that's needed is passion and perhaps the resources for one bigger website. No megacorps involved, all grassroots.