Finally got a ranking, 18k, Please Review This fighting game

Xai · Post by **Xai** » Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:27 pm

Hi,

I have a posted a couple of games for review before and I really appreciated the comments that were made. After a few months of playing over the board about 3 times a week, I've decided to jump back into KGS. I played this game tonight and finally got rid of my "?" ranking and got a rank of 18k. It's been awhile since the last game I posted so I'm looking for advice on my current play (which I know isn't very good yet). Most of the time I feel lost.

A few comments before hand:
- There are LOTS of captures in this game :/
- Because I've played a lot of 13x13, I tend to gravitate towards trying to take side territory and I'm not very good at jumping out into the center
- Not sure how to respond to moves such as 7
- At Move 191, what should I have done? I let him make a long chain which White connected to his living group and hurt a lot my territory
- I lost a lot, and I mean alot, of stones due to capture

Thanks,

CXUD · Post by **CXUD** » Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:57 pm

Move 7, maybe L 16. It's called hane and it makes use of your defending position by reducing his liberties to two.

edit: yeah you're response wasn't wrong or anything (pretty good actually) but if you do L 16 it allows you to build towards your corner stones forming a base. It's just one way to do it, you can make your response work well too.

second edit: it seems like you know how to respond just fine.

emeraldemon · Post by **emeraldemon** » Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:17 pm

Congrats on the win, you're on your way :tmbup:

Here's your assignment. Any time from about move 150 to almost the end of the game, you could have killed white's group on the left. How?

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:32 pm

If you have not played 100 games yet, try to finish 100 games as quickly as you can.
(9x9, 13x13, 19x19, humans and bots are all OK -- and the smaller boards can save you a lot of time at this stage.)
Most of your problems at this level are basic shapes and very small moves (0.5-point moves). A few ideas:

jts · Post by **jts** » Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:45 pm

Most of your problems at this level are basic shapes and very small moves (0.5-point moves)

Just to elaborate on the two things Ed said, because to an absolute beginner these may seem like jargon.

very small moves

In go, each move gets you points, by enlarging your territory (or saving your stones) or by reducing your opponent's territory (or capturing his stones). You've probably noticed that at the very end of a game, all the moves that players make are 1 pt. moves - pushing one point into his territory, capturing a single stone without making any change in territory, that kind of thing. On the other hand, you've probably also seen that some moves are worth huge numbers of points - especially moves that capture (or save) huge groups. That kind of move can be worth 60 pts., or more.

We also estimate the value of moves (as a sort of metaphor) even when there isn't a fixed amount of territory or stones changing hands. For example, the first move on an empty board is worth about 15 pts. After that, in general each move is worth less and less as the game goes on, until we get to the 1 pt. moves (everything cools down, so we say "the temperature [=points per move] is falling")... although as you've seen, when fights break out and stones come into contact, each move can be worth more and more (things are heating up, so "the temperature [=points per move] is rising").

If each move is worth a certain number of points, then it's fairly clear that if you keep passing while your opponent plays moves, you'll fall behind. (I pass, he plays a 10 pt. move... I pass, he plays a 10 pt. move... I pass, he plays a 9 pt. move: suddenly he's 29 pts. ahead of me.)

What's less clear, especially to beginners, is that playing a move that gains 1 pt. is closer to passing than to playing a move that gains 10 pts. (I play 1 pt, he plays 10 pts... I play 1 pt., he plays 10 pts... I play 1 pt., he plays 9 pts: he's 26 pts. ahead of me.) In fact, even if I capture a bunch of stones -- 5 stones, say -- I might still have lost points, if there are bigger moves on the board.

So when Ed says that "small moves" are a problem, what he means is that you're playing moves that gain 1 pt., or less, when you should be playing moves that gain 10 pts. Given that games are often lost by less than 7 points, a single small move can cost you the game.

The same, continued:

The continuation continued:

basic shapes

Xai · Post by **Xai** » Sun Aug 07, 2011 6:57 pm

Thank you all very much for your comments. I looked up what empty triangle means and now I know better moves to make when I get in a similar situation.

Emeraldemon, now that you brought my attention to it, I easily saw how to kill the White group on the left. I can't believe I missed that for over 100 moves during the actual game! Major sadness

Thanks.

demigod · Post by **demigod** » Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:02 pm

Just a little question here.
I looked up the article on good shapes.
http://senseis.xmp.net/?CounterHane
Both double hane and counter-hane are considered good shapes. But double hane is possible only if the previous step was counter-hane? Does that mean that this situation is good for both players? It must be better for one of them, no?

jts · Post by **jts** » Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:21 pm

When you have a general question (along the lines of "what's a counter-hane?") while reading a year-old thread, feel free to start a shiny new thread instead of resurrecting the old one.

When we describe sequences, we normally try to look at sequences where each side plays their best move. We say things like "this result is best for both players". That means that if either player had deviated from the sequence at any point, it would have benefitted his opponent. That means that each individual move in the sequence was quite good (compared to other possible moves), but you're right, at the end of the sequence we want to know, "Who is this position good for?" And to answer that we have to say, "'Good for', compared to what exactly?"

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:19 pm

What jts said. In addition:

demigod wrote:Both double hane and counter-hane are considered good shapes.
But double hane is possible only if...

(1) Go is often very specific. We need to look at a specific board position.

demigod wrote:Does that mean that this situation is good for both players? It must be better for one of them, no?

No -- again, we go back to (1) above.

For example, let's say B plays a double hane --
Depending on the specific board position, the result can be:
(a) game-winning for B (game over for W);
(b) very good for B (but not yet "game over" for W);
(c) good for B;
(d) slightly better for B;
(e) barely better for B; (already difficult to distinquish from (d))
(f) neutral -- roughly equal for both B and W; (which is what happens in a joseki) -- the "no" to your last question
(g,h,i,j) -- the reverse of (d,c,b,a): barely better for W; slightly better for W; good for W; very good for W; game over for B;
(k) unclear -- for very complex situations

So you see it can be very difficult to answer general questions;
we need to look at a specific board position.

xed_over · Post by **xed_over** » Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:03 am

jts wrote:When you have a general question (along the lines of "what's a counter-hane?") while reading a year-old thread, feel free to start a shiny new thread instead of resurrecting the old one.

on the other hand, he's resurrected a very good thread that I, for one, haven't yet read, and may have never seen otherwise.

Life In 19x19

Finally got a ranking, 18k, Please Review This fighting game

Finally got a ranking, 18k, Please Review This fighting game

Re: Finally got a ranking, 18k, Please Review This fighting

Re: Finally got a ranking, 18k, Please Review This fighting

Re: Finally got a ranking, 18k, Please Review This fighting

Re: Finally got a ranking, 18k, Please Review This fighting

Re: Finally got a ranking, 18k, Please Review This fighting

Re: Finally got a ranking, 18k, Please Review This fighting

Re: Finally got a ranking, 18k, Please Review This fighting